Science and Research Committee on Feb. 8th, 2024

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I appreciate that.

Ms. Lévesque, maybe I'll go to you to build on this comment. You mentioned the importance of listening, and you also talked about creating spaces for interaction or intersection and just how important that is. You also sort of critiqued the idea of integration, which I thought was very insightful.

I want to ask you what barriers or challenges you might foresee in the federal government's trying to create those kinds of spaces. I think you have some experience over the 20-something years that you've been doing this. Could you relay some of what might be the barriers or challenges to creating those kinds of spaces? Could you help us?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

You have about one minute.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I think she may be frozen.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

I think we've lost Ms. Lévesque.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

That's too bad. I was really looking forward to her response.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Maybe we can get the question in writing over to her in order to try to include it in the testimony today.

We have about 20 seconds left, if you have another question.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Maybe I'll go back to you, Chief Lazare.

In terms of your ways of knowing and traditional knowledge, what signs do you see of climate change that are deeply concerning to you?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Answer very briefly, if you don't mind, please.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Maybe just list one or two.

[Chief Jessica Lazare]

There are a lot right now that we're seeing. I can't speak specifically on the climate change things right now because I'm put on the spot. I'm so sorry. I can probably answer this in writing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Let's do that. Let's circle back. Unfortunately, time is not on our side for that question. Thank you for trying.

Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mrs. Lévesque, earlier you discussed the importance of bridges of understanding.

I'd like you to explain something to us. How can the federal government make decisions involving the experiences of indigenous communities if the ways of knowing are different? You said that assessment is done differently. I'd like to know if the communities have had experiences that differ from what the scientific data show. In other words, are there any contradictions? How do you go about integrating it all and distinguishing what's good from what's less good?

That's the question. How can we say whether the scientific method applies to indigenous knowledge?

[Carole Lévesque]

As I briefly mentioned earlier, the idea isn't to reject science or indigenous knowledge, but rather to give each knowledge system an equal chance. That can be achieved by working together to build knowledge and through working meetings, for example. The idea is to find connections between science and indigenous knowledge.

Of course, they may not necessarily point in the same direction. However, if a team is convinced it's important to find solutions together, then it may possibly come up with two solutions, one of which will come from science and the other from indigenous knowledge systems. Those two solutions can coexist.

So the idea isn't to pit science and indigenous knowledge against each other but rather to determine mechanisms whereby they can come together. There has to be an exchange between scientists who are open to other ways of understanding and indigenous knowledge-keepers. The idea isn't to isolate two worlds and to pit them against each other and polarize them but rather to find meeting spaces and work within those spaces. They mustn't provide responses that are predetermined or written in advance. We have to find ways to advance further in our respective knowledge systems.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I see.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Mr. Cannings, you have the last two and a half minutes, please.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

I'd like to continue with Ms. Lévesque.

You made a very forceful and, I think, proper distinction around the word “integration”. We don't want to talk of integrating indigenous knowledge with science. What this study is about is integrating indigenous knowledge into our policy decisions—just as I, as a scientist, would prefer to see more science integrated into our policy-making frameworks.

I'm just wondering if you could comment on that, on how we could use indigenous knowledge more in our policy-making, and how that would work alongside western, or settler, science.

[Carole Lévesque]

Once again, this idea of integrating may have a broader meaning in the context of this House of Commons committee. The idea isn't to start off with science as the main dish and to add an ingredient that comes from indigenous sciences, indigenous knowledge and indigenous knowledge systems. The idea instead is to see how we can find potential responses in both systems and how we can make them coexist rather than integrate them.

What we've done in previous decades by wanting to integrate knowledge hasn't yielded very convincing results because the basis was scientific and not very open to other kinds of information. By establishing a slightly more equitable foundation, we can draw on practices and ways of doing things. Science isn't just about data; it's also about practices and ways of doing things that come together, sometimes more often than we think. In fact, when you adhere to the idea of integrating, you lose sight of the very essence of indigenous knowledge systems, which could suggest other ways of building knowledge or experience. Ms. Lazare clearly established that.

However, if we aren't open to those kinds of practices, we'll lose sight of the evidence that would enable us, for example, to develop more effective environmental, health and education policies.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you.

You always have more to say than we have time on the clock, but that's the nature of what we are doing here, unfortunately.

Thank you for your contributions today, Dr. Lévesque and Chief Lazare. It was a really good discussion, and I know our analysts will be putting some of this information forward to us.

We're still working in the background trying to recover some time with Marjolaine Tshernish. Possibly, in the second part of the meeting, we might be able to get her testimony. If not, we'll keep working on that, so that we can get as broad a perspective as we can.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Chair, could I make a comment?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Do you have a point of order?

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

It's not really a point of order. I just want to make a very small comment.

I had asked Ms. Lévesque a question, which I felt would be really great to get an answer to. I know she had a technical difficulty at that moment. It was nobody's fault. I was just wondering if I could get—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

That's my next line.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Is it? My apologies.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

We didn't get all the answers. We ran out of time on some, and we had a few technical difficulties, so, please, do submit any answers to the clerk.

If you were off-line and missed a question, we'll try to make sure the question gets to you. The clerk will reach out and get the question to you, so that we can include that in the testimony this morning. Such is the nature of Zoom sometimes.

Thank you to all of our witnesses.

We are going to suspend briefly, and then continue with the second part of our meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

We still have some technical issues in the background, but our two witnesses who are here have had the sound checks done, and we're ready to go.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(i), and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, September 18, 2023, the committee resumes its study on the integration of indigenous traditional knowledge and science in government policy development.

It's now my pleasure to welcome Dr. Nancy Turner, distinguished professor emerita, to our committee today, as well as Dr. Vicki Kelly, associate professor at Simon Fraser University. Both are with us via video conference in a part of the country where it would be great for us to be visiting you, and not vice versa.

You each have five minutes for your opening statements.

We'll start with Dr. Turner. Go ahead with your five-minute presentation, please.