Evidence of meeting #72 for Science and Research in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was different.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON
Thank you so much.
Dr. Kelly, to get back to what Mr. Lobb was asking, could you perhaps give us some examples from your experience as to how weaving indigenous knowledge into issues and problems that you've seen through your career has perhaps assisted in some areas other than the environmental issues, going beyond into health, homelessness, drug use or whatever comes to mind? Could you give us some examples of where it has been very beneficial?
12:35 p.m.
Associate Professor, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
Yes. Thank you very much for your question.
What I was trying to allude to in what I was saying was that in the work with the research offices, for example, or when I'm teaching my students in all these programs, whether it be health or environmental or indigenous education, what I'm encountering is young people who, from children, have been discontent with the world view of how we are attending to medicine, how we are attending to education and how we're attending to environmental issues. What they tell me is that they are grateful to encounter indigenous understandings. They're grateful for the world view, for another way of looking at the world and how that implicates or transforms the way they look at the field they have chosen to work in, whether that's health or education or land use or whatever their issue is. They're grateful. One of my students said this to me: “You asked us what kind of ancestor we want to be and how we are carrying on the legacy. My 15-year-old son asked me the same question.”
How do we help in creating this capacity so that we all have a greater understanding of those understandings in our daily lives? They implicate how we act in relation to that which we're working with. It happens in medicine. I worked in hospitals in Europe, and as was already presented by one of your other witnesses, they went from homeopathic to allopathic. That was all on the table when we were looking at well-being and healing.
It's the same in education. What's a holistic, inclusive way of understanding the world that then implicates education? The deficit model, respectfully, based on our scientific understandings, is causing great harm to children.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON
In other words, quality of life is just as important, perhaps, as physical longevity or some measures that we conventionally use, if I could paraphrase what you're saying.
12:40 p.m.
Associate Professor, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
I think the teachings of indigenous peoples are relevant to all that we do today.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
That's great testimony.
Thank you for the questions as well.
It's wonderful to have the three of you here with us today.
We'll go over to Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas for six minutes, please.
12:40 p.m.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good afternoon to the witnesses who have joined us for the second hour of this study.
My questions are for you, Ms. Tshernish. First, I want to thank you for your commitment and for what you do to promote the Innu language and culture. That's very important. You are entitled to your own identity. From a cultural standpoint, that's part of who you are, your community and your history.
Today I would like you to help us sort out this integration of indigenous knowledge. We've already devoted several meetings to the subject. You mentioned beliefs and traditions in your remarks. With regard to science, as you know, a scientific method has been developed. It's not brand new. I understand that indigenous communities have various experiences that can enhance science.
With regard to indigenous experiences, would you please explain to us how you isolate traditions and beliefs, which are always based on truth or which lead to certain experiences, from the usual scientific process we're familiar with?
How do you combine the two? How do you enhance them so that's positive for everyone?
12:40 p.m.
Executive Director, Institut Tshakapesh
Going back to the way our groups work, we've noticed that Innu and non-indigenous employees start and finish at the same place but get there by different paths. The way to conduct a project among non-indigenous people is clearly defined. There are steps that must be observed. Among the first nations, some of those steps occur somewhat later in the process. Sometimes a step is completed twice, but a little further on. You have to understand why the first nations take that step a little further on.
Non-indigenous people ultimately understand that the first nations' process is much more logical. However, they don't follow that reasoning to the point of understanding why the same step occurred twice in the process, for example.
There are also significant differences in the value hierarchy. For example, family is more important than work among first nations. Here some non-indigenous employers understand that there are differences between the value hierarchies of Innu and non-indigenous employees, and they therefore adapt their policies based on those differences.
12:40 p.m.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Ms. Tshernish, as you said earlier, there are many indigenous communities in Quebec and Canada. Not all of them have had the same experiences, the same history or the same language. Consequently, they have different traditions and beliefs. Scientifically speaking, they may have had experiences that could enhance science.
However, I imagine there are differences in indigenous knowledge. You don't all think the same way; you are different. So who's telling the truth? How do you determine priorities or know what works?
I understand that you have your own methods, but we'd like to know how to integrate indigenous experiences with science now. We want to know where to draw the line. We want to know what you adopt and what you don't adopt, what works and what doesn't.
I'd like you to help us sort that out today.
February 8th, 2024 / 12:45 p.m.
Executive Director, Institut Tshakapesh
You would have to work with groups, with first nations organizations, and invite elders to round tables and discussion tables.
There are similarities between us; we have similar pasts. We have adapted to the geographic situation we were exposed to on the land. Farther to the north, people wear seal skin clothing because it's warmer. A little farther south, they use caribou hide. There are similarities, but differences as well. Some rituals differ from one nation to the next. I, Marjolaine Tshernish, won't be resolving this issue today. You really have to sit down and work with many groups and diverse nations so we too can understand your objectives for integrating traditional knowledge in your policies.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
That's great. Thank you.
It's a very difficult subject to unpack. Thank you for doing that for us.
Next, we have Mr. Cannings, for six minutes, please.
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Thank you, and thank you all for being here today.
I'm going to turn to Dr. Turner. I want to get on the record what a pleasure it is to see you here today, and what an honour.
I want to say a few things about your work, and how important it's been to me and others. You have the Order of Canada, just so everybody knows. We all respect that. You're a true pioneer at that intersection between western science and indigenous knowledge, so thank you. Lim’limpt, as we say in the Nsyilxcn language, for all of your books, which I've used so often over the last 50 years.
You touched on a few examples of your work where indigenous knowledge was used, or was attempted to be used, in policy decisions. Could you use the Clayoquot process to talk about your experience in that regard?
12:45 p.m.
Distinguished Professor Emerita, University of Victoria, As an Individual
Thank you for your kind words, Richard. It's very good to see you, as well.
In the early 1990s, there was a lot of disruption and concern by many people over the way forestry was being practised in the Clayoquot Sound region on the west coast of Vancouver Island. The government of the day convened a panel—I was privileged to be a member of it—composed of Nuu-chah-nulth knowledge-keepers and scientists of various background experiences to come up with recommendations about how forest practices should be undertaken in the region.
Dr. Richard Atleo Umeek was the co-chair of the panel, along with a wildlife biologist. He is the author of two books. One is called Principles of Tsawalk.Tsawalk means “one”.
The first thing we did, following Nuu-chah-nulth protocol, was that we sat around the table, introduced ourselves, and developed a series of guiding principles, ways that we would mutually agree to. That was the fundamental background to the work we were doing. The first principle was something to the effect of hishuk ish tsawalk, which means “everything is one”. It's the recognition of the interrelationships among all beings that the scientists, Nuu-chah-nulth elders, and specialists agreed to.
Out of that work, over two or three years, came a series of recommendations. I would recommend that your committee actually get a hold of those reports and have a look at them. “Report 3: first nations' perspectives relating to forest practices standards in Clayoquot Sound” has a lot of good advice. Those reports would provide a lot of good information and advice, I think.
12:50 p.m.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
You also mentioned the importance of language.
I'm wondering whether you could comment on the capacity of many first nations to provide this indigenous knowledge when, as you know, that knowledge is now contained in so few people in their nations. That's certainly the case in the Okanagan Nation.
I'm wondering whether you could comment on the importance of language.
12:50 p.m.
Distinguished Professor Emerita, University of Victoria, As an Individual
That is such a good point.
As all of you know, indigenous languages were suppressed during the period of residential schools—over a hundred years or more. Students were actually beaten sometimes for uttering words in their own language. I've talked to people who had that happen to them, so I know what happened to people's languages.
Fortunately, there are individuals in almost all communities or in related communities—I call them “cultural refugia”—who, for one reason or another, managed to retain their language. They still, today, hold that language and are able to pass it along. That is the planting of the seed for language revitalization, which is occurring in many places. Dr. Jeannette Armstrong, who served as a committee member for you, is one of those cultural refugia. I worked with her parents long ago. I know many others who are now involved in restoring and revitalizing all of those diverse languages. I'm very encouraged by what's happening there.
12:50 p.m.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
I have 30 seconds. I'll just limit it to this.
I think you mentioned another example that you might want to quickly dive into: a group working on this exact problem of bringing western science and indigenous knowledge together.
12:50 p.m.
Distinguished Professor Emerita, University of Victoria, As an Individual
Yes. My friend Dr. Harriet Kuhnlein, who is a nutritionist and the founder of the centre for indigenous peoples' nutrition and environment at McGill University, started, together with Nuxalk Nation leaders, a program back in the eighties called the Nuxalk food and nutrition program, which looked at dietary change and its impacts on health in the Nuxalk community at Bella Coola. I was part of that project and able to witness first-hand the respectful relationship between the academic scholars, including Dr. Kuhnlein and others, and the indigenous knowledge-keepers who were sharing that knowledge.
12:50 p.m.
Distinguished Professor Emerita, University of Victoria, As an Individual
There are three books on the FAO website—
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
I'm sorry. I wish we had more time.
As you speak, I'm thinking of Sheila Watt-Cloutier and her work, as well, around traditional country food, the contamination of that food and the impact on indigenous communities. The Right to Be Cold was a fantastic book on that.
Unfortunately, we're going to have to call time. We don't have time to go around with quick questions. However, because of some technical difficulties, we were as lenient as we could be on time. Also, the quality of the answers we were getting was tremendous.
Thank you all for being here, Dr. Nancy Turner, Dr. Vicki Kelly and Marjolaine Tshernish, and for the extra work of even changing locations to get technical support working with us.
Also, thank you to the interpreters for allowing some leeway, in terms of the quality of sound we were working with today.
We will be meeting again on Tuesday, February 13, to continue the study. At the end of the meeting on February 13, so we can get a full two hours in, I'd like to extend by 15 to 30 minutes to look at the travel submission for the May break week being prepared by the clerk right now. Hopefully, we can deal with that travel budget so we can get it in under the deadline of February 16.
Apart from that, I think we'd look for an adjournment.
Thank you again to the witnesses.
Thank you to the members for the tremendous depth of their questions today.
Can we adjourn?
12:50 p.m.
Some hon. members
Agreed.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal