Science and Research Committee on April 11th, 2024

[Dr. Shannon Wagner]

It's such an important topic right now federally and for the interior of B.C. in particular, which has experienced the absolutely devastating impacts of forest fires over the last couple of years. I'm really pleased to say that TRU has decided that wildfires are an absolute priority of our institution. We've partnered with the province. We're going to develop a training and education centre that will look at everything from basic training through undergraduate and graduate training to research in order to create an ecosystem of research-informed training.

As many of us know, with climate change, the adaptation training and response need to change, and we need research to do that. I think back to Dr. McCauley's comments at the beginning: Research drives society. We need research in order to really move forward on answering some of the pressing calls of our current situation.

We have definitely seen some influx of federal funds, particularly around Natural Resources Canada and the opportunities that exist through it. I think that's definitely a start.

There's a lot of work to do. I would expand it beyond wildfires to many other different types of climate disasters that we're experiencing as a country. It's a high-priority area, and it's definitely a source for investment at the federal level.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

You have 30 seconds, if you have a short question and short answer.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

I'll give these few seconds to the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

That's great. Good-quality questions are sometimes better than quantity. Thank you very much for your questions.

Now we'll move to the second round and go to Gerald Soroka for five minutes.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming today.

Since Dr. Wagner has come here in person, I think I'll start with her.

How is TRU working to diversify its funding beyond federal support and tuition, specifically through commercial partnerships or intellectual property initiatives? Please provide examples.

[Dr. Shannon Wagner]

TRU, as I alluded to in my opening remarks, is very much a growing research institution. At this point, we've been quite successful in getting tri-council and provincial funding. We are really developing on the innovation and IP front, and we are developing our industrial partnerships.

As Dr. Pexman alluded to, the VPR's office is often the primary source for research support. That is also the case at TRU. We're making significant investments in things like industrial individuals who are responsible for specific industrial and commercial IP-related contracts, and building those relationships with industry.

In addition, we're thinking forward to building partnerships with some of the larger institutions in our province to create collaborations on some of those pieces. To fully flesh out offices of intellectual property and commercialization is a big undertaking for the smaller and mid-sized institutions; it's a big lift. It's really about looking at interinstitutional collaboration to build out our opportunities in those areas.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

What criteria do you use to prioritize research projects? Does it also include looking at a return on investment?

[Dr. Shannon Wagner]

At a smaller or mid-sized institution, we identify pillars of research priorities, similar to the larger institutions. As an institution, we will absolutely invest in those research areas. For us, it's certainly one of our research areas as well. Another one is indigenous health.

Was return on investment the other part of that question?

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Yes.

[Dr. Shannon Wagner]

When we think about making investments in research, we're often thinking about the capacity that's built, in particular, around tri-council funding.

One of the other members brought up, for example, the Canada research chair program. The opportunity of having a Canada research chair makes me think about Dr. Mike Flannigan and Dr. Jill Harvey, who are chairs at TRU. They help us build relationships with industry. They provide almost ambassadorships for the institution to create pathways to a return on investment for grant dollars. That's a really important piece of building research at a university.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

On the wildfire science that you guys have been developing there, it's great that you're attracting funding and partnerships. Is that only looking at the forests themselves or how a fire burns? Are you also looking at new technologies and planes or ways of extinguishing the fires?

[Dr. Shannon Wagner]

Absolutely, we're looking at a wide variety of areas.

We're actually thinking of it as wildfire studies. We are thinking about training, education, research and innovation. We are thinking about not only wildfire science but also community and social resilience. How does a wildfire impact a community, and how does a community respond to a wildfire? We are looking at occupational and community health around wildfires, and definitely indigenous cultural fire as well. We are looking at how all of those pieces fit into wildfire mitigation, response and prevention.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you for that.

Dr. Pexman, what are your main goals for Western's research and innovation over your term? How do you plan to balance traditional strengths and new research areas?

[Dr. Penny Pexman]

We have big ambitions at Western. I'm a relatively new VPR. I'm struck by the research strengths that already exist and the opportunities that exist to build on those through partnership, innovation and tech transfer.

One example of a priority is one that I mentioned in my comments, which was the nuclear hub. I like that example because it's built on discovery research in things like medical isotopes and nuclear energy, but it also involves key partnerships, both within the province and beyond, with different types of organizations. It capitalizes on a couple of federal programs that actually require matching contributions and leveraging.

One would be the NSERC alliance program. We have a number of successful NSERC alliance grants that have just come in through the nuclear hub for which there is an industry partner who wants to engage with one of our researchers. The federal funding requires a combination of federal and external funding, and those tend to build into bigger and bigger industry contracts.

The Mitacs program would be another example. There's a requirement that, in order for a student to engage with an industry partner, some money comes from Mitacs. There's also money from the industry partner. Those lead to fantastic job opportunities and larger-scale industry partnerships. We have a number of those examples right now in the nuclear hub.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you for the questions and great answers.

We'll move now to Ms. Lena Metlege Diab, please, for five minutes.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for coming.

I heard something this morning that I really wasn't expecting to hear, but it really caught my attention.

Dr. Wagner, you talked about the institute for wildfire and about understanding and managing the effects of wildfires. I think that's so important. One of my children did graduate work on wildfires in Nova Scotia at Dalhousie University. When she started, she was told that no one else had done that before. This was a number of years ago.

To come back full circle, in two weeks' time, I'm putting on a session in my community. I come from Halifax West in Nova Scotia, all the way on the other coast, where we experienced terrible wildfires last year that have left hundreds of people devastated. Many homes were burned and many people were evacuated. A number of things happened, but luckily there were no fatalities.

I'm putting on an information session on emergency preparedness on April 25. Perhaps we should talk to you afterward to see what information we can get from you.

How do you collaborate or teach to solve problems? They're not just your provincial problems or those in your own territory or even Canada. They could be international issues. How do you collaborate? How can you get more researchers, get more funding and get more people knowledgeable so that you can garner much more funding? I'm happy to hear that you've received funding from Natural Resources Canada, but perhaps you can describe that process to us. What can we do as parliamentarians to aid you with that?

[Dr. Shannon Wagner]

I echo the devastation of the wildfires. As you know, a number of lives were lost last year as well in the firefighter ranks. We were working directly with the B.C. Wildfire Service at the time and felt very deeply the loss of their members. That happened last summer. It's become very much an emotional topic for us at our institution, so thank you for that.

As far as our development of the Institute for Wildfire Science, Adaptation and Resiliency goes, our scientific director is Dr. Mike Flannigan. He is globally known for his expertise in wildfire research, and he is incredibly well connected with other researchers provincially, nationally and globally. While having him and the other researchers do that work and connect with other researchers, our role is to provide the assistance and support to have the researchers do the fantastic work they do and to invite other institutions and other researchers to become part of the institute.

Another big piece for us is the creation of a wildfire training and education centre, which we think is a first in the ecosystem. We are not aware of any other systems where training, education, research and innovation are coming together under one roof to do these things collectively with all of the people engaged.

The idea of that is having research-informed training and education, building that research and then informing the things that are happening on the ground. We are not interested in doing that only regionally. We really would like to see both the institute and the centre become a provincial source and absolutely a national source.

We are actively seeking any kind of collaboration that anybody would like to have with us. We are trying our very best to work with other post-secondary institutions across our province and across our nation.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

With the limited time I have left, Dr. McCauley, I have a question for you.

The U15—your university and others—does tremendous work, and you talked a lot about team-building collaboration across industry but also with other universities.

I have a U15 member in my province, Dalhousie, and I know they collaborate with the other centres, but what else can you recommend to us in terms of how we as parliamentarians and a government can help you so that all sectors and universities, regardless of their size, work together better?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

I'm sorry. I'm going to have to pause on that question. If there's an answer, perhaps we could have it in writing. We are at time.

We have five minutes left in this section of the meeting. We'll have two two-and-a-half-minute rounds.

For the first of those two and a half minutes, it's over to Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Pexman, you said earlier that the size of the organization shouldn't necessarily affect research funding. If I understand you correctly, we should be funding universities based on past innovations. Can you elaborate on this?

In my opinion, the purpose of research funding is to fund future research, not to reward discoveries. Yet this is the current model of the funding structure. In your opinion, is the current funding system appropriate and does it allow for innovation? Shouldn't there be improvements so that everyone, regardless of their location or university, can make major advances in scientific research?

[Dr. Penny Pexman]

I think the best outcomes will be derived by a system where each application is adjudicated on its merits. We consider what the research question is, how well it is being interrogated and whether we feel it is a great training opportunity. Those tend to be the questions we ask under the current federal funding programs. I think they are the right questions.

That's my opinion about how we should be making decisions about federal funding opportunities.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you for the information, Ms. Pexman.

You spoke about excellence. For some peers who sit on assessment committees, excellence depends on the source of the funding application and the research. For example, if the application came from a U15 member university, this could influence the members of the assessment committee. This is a taboo phenomenon. However, it currently plays a part in the allocation of funding for scientific research in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

You have 30 seconds.

[Dr. Penny Pexman]

The evaluation is about the researcher's capability to do the work. That is typically the criterion. The institution at which someone is employed is not a big driver of that. As we heard, there are excellent researchers working on, for instance, wildfire science at Thompson Rivers. That expertise should be valued, and it is, regardless of the institution the person comes from.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

That's beautiful. Thank you.

Monsieur Boulerice, you have two and a half minutes.