Science and Research Committee on Sept. 19th, 2024

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

It's 0.5%. Thank you. I appreciate that clarification.

Can you tell me which research paper came up with that?

[Mathieu Laneuville]

I can give it to the committee.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Thank you.

You can provide that to the clerk, and we'll have that information. Thank you very much.

Next up is MP Longfield, for five minutes.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

I really appreciated the direction Mr. Kitchen was going in, in terms of what we can work on from the federal side.

I also sit on the environment committee, and we have done CEPA studies. It was great to hear CEPA mentioned this afternoon by Mr. Merante.

Looking at the science of plastics and recycling, I'd like to start with Dr. Vaneeckhaute and talk about how the structures of plastics could accommodate recycling if we did the right science.

The University of Guelph has the Bioproducts Discovery and Development Centre, where they're working on bioplastics, but they're using oilseeds like soy or canola as a base. They're also using carbon nanoparticles in the carbon black that's being used, which is naturally occurring carbon that does not come from petroleum. That results in something that's lighter, stronger and less costly, so it has all three things going for it. Some automotive parts manufacturers are now incorporating that in what they supply, like Ford Motor Company, as an example.

Could you talk about what scientific developments the federal government could be funding through things like your research chair or other research you know of that we could be supporting?

[Céline Vaneeckhaute]

Thank you for the question.

What would be very important and interesting for the future is to look, for instance, into the production of plastic from other waste sources. For example, we have a lot of food waste and sewage sludge that we want to valorize now as well; we need to valorize organic waste through, for instance, processes like anaerobic digestion. In these processes, we can produce methane, but we can also basically stop the process earlier and produce hydrogen gas with volatile fatty acids, and these volatile fatty acids can then be used for fermentation by bacteria that can produce bioplastics. For example, PHA can be produced by that method.

In this way, we can produce bio-based plastics from organic waste materials, so we're not in any competition with food production, etc.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

In fact, the University of Guelph is taking the coffee grounds from McDonald's Canada, which are very oil-rich, and using them, as you're saying, to create bioplastics that are now used in headlights by the Ford Motor Company, as an example. They're doing it in Leamington, Ontario, so they're creating rural jobs as well.

Instead of going to landfill, the coffee grounds are going into the production of bioplastics. Is this the type of example you're talking about?

[Céline Vaneeckhaute]

Yes, this is the type of example that we should promote, I think. The challenge there is that if you produce these bioplastics, of course, you want them to also be resistant and things like that, so you have to give them the appropriate characteristics. That is still challenging. In this area, more research is needed to make bioplastics that are compatible with the synthetic plastics we have now.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Great. Thank you.

In terms of research, I'm also going to go over to Mr. Laneuville.

When we talk about the right types of plastics, I'm also thinking of the research around eco-industrial zones. Pearson airport has some of the companies there feeding their waste into the inputs of other companies at Pearson. Halifax has another eco-industrial zone, and Regina and Delta, B.C. have them.

Eco-industrial zone creation is something that has science behind it. Is that something you've had any experience with, so that we could support research in that area?

[Mathieu Laneuville]

We need more funding for these as well, because we always use virgin resin from China or India, and that's not where we want to go. I think we have the innovation in Canada to put all our force into it and encourage it to go further.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Sometimes that base product can be found from your next-door neighbour instead of going to China.

Thank you, witnesses.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

That's your time.

Now we will turn to MP Blanchette-Joncas for two and a half minutes, please.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Vaneeckhaute, I want start off by commending you for your commitment and your work. You are the Canada research chair in resource recovery and bioproducts engineering. So you have expertise in the production of high-quality bio-based products from residues. Is there an alternative today, such as organic or plastic, that could facilitate better recycling and less pollution?

[Céline Vaneeckhaute]

We just talked a little bit about that. There are already bio-based plastics on the market that work very well, including polyhydroxyalkanoate, or PHA, and polylactic acid, or PLA.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you.

What is your opinion on research funding for your activities? Do you think it's sufficient?

[Céline Vaneeckhaute]

I think we could benefit from more support and programs specific to plastics, especially given a policy to reduce their use and optimize their recycling.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much.

I think it is important to provide figures so that people understand us. The 2023 federal budget invested $2.5 billion in science and innovation. For national defence, which is also an important area, $26.5 billion was invested. So we see where the priorities are. I mentioned a little earlier that the government had spent $34 billion to buy a pipeline to extract oil and export it to Asia. That's 13 times more than last year's budget for science and research.

As a scientist, do you find that the federal government is prioritizing science and research in developing innovation to find solutions for the environment, such as recycling?

[Céline Vaneeckhaute]

I think it would be good to have more support, especially for our students. We hire Ph.D. students. Scholarships have been increased after all, which was necessary, and that's a step in the right direction. However, funding for programs specific to priorities such as plastics and recycling would be welcome.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

That would be welcome, and thank you for mentioning it.

I waged a major battle with my colleagues to increase graduate scholarships. My colleague was talking about the slogan on licence plates in Nova Scotia. I remind you that, in Quebec, the slogan is “Je me souviens”. We remember that graduate scholarships had not been indexed by a cent for 20 years. The federal government, which says it believes in research, ended up getting that done.

There is a reason why a brain drain has been taking place. There is a reason why we were the only G7 country that had not increased its investment in research and development as a share of its gross domestic product over the past 20 years. So I am relying on the data, on the science—

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

That's your time. Thank you.

The final round will be with MP Cannings, for two and a half minutes.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

I'm just going to allow Monsieur Laneuville to follow up. He wanted to say something about the situation with compostable plastics, but whoever feels they can answer that may do so. It is a controversial topic.

[Céline Vaneeckhaute]

I personally think that the problem with compostable plastic right now is that it's mentioned as compostable, but oftentimes it's actually not compostable in the current systems that we have. Our Réseau Environnement members say that we should not use those kinds of expressions, because they're confusing. It's going to pollute the recycling stream and things like that.

[Mathieu Laneuville]

For example, when we have food waste, it's good in maybe 20 days, but for plastic, it's like 80 days, and with the temperatures we have in Canada, it's not fit yet. Maybe we need more time for the technologies to get there.

[Céline Vaneeckhaute]

The same thing is true for biodegradable or degradable. There are all these synonyms.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I know it's certainly not compostable in my backyard compost. A year later it's still there, fresh as new.

There is also a danger that this would just create more.... I think someone in the last panel mentioned this creates more microplastics. These compostable plastics break down, but they just break down into microplastics. They don't break down into the monomers that they came from.