Science and Research Committee on Sept. 26th, 2024

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here and offering your expertise. I was involved with the CEPA discussions in the environment committee, and I know that we did get contributions on where we've landed in terms of the definition of “toxic”.

In terms of science, I really am interested in how we engage with our science community.

Ms. Marshall, you've piqued my interest there.

We had the University of Guelph at our last meeting. They were talking about what they've done in terms of bioscience in developing new resin and also in using filler. They didn't specify, but they're things like leftover stalks from grain fields as filler to substitute for plastic polymer.

I'm wondering about the vertical. I know that Nova Chemicals or Dow has a specific vertical. The ownership of Nova being with the Mubadala Investment Company in Abu Dhabi, I'm guessing there isn't a lot of cornstalk in the vertical.

Could you comment on how you would work with universities that don't have products in your vertical?

[Sarah Marshall]

We're certainly interested in working with Canadian universities on innovations in plastics recycling. We've committed to growing our plastics recycling business at Nova Chemicals. We're starting discussions with four different universities across Canada now to work on the innovation necessary both to scale and to improve economies and to improve environmental outcomes and improve costs for mechanical and advanced recycling.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

I just have to plug the Bioproducts Discovery and Development Centre in Guelph. They have developed new carbon black through nanotechnology using carbene. Good technology is being developed, but my concern is that it isn't at a scale that would help with recycling components or keeping the polychains in sustainable ways.

Could you comment on that?

[Sarah Marshall]

There are two different streams of recycling that we talked about. Mechanical recycling is here now, and you can recycle materials that are similar to one another. In our Indiana recycling facility, we'll be using polyethylene film and convert it into recycled polyethylene that can be used in films again.

Advanced recycling is key to the other materials and mixed materials you're speaking of.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

You're leading to my next line of questions, and thank you for that, because it was that design of the advanced recycling, the chemical—or otherwise known as advanced.

Dr. Lessard, at the University of Ottawa, I'm very interested in the work you're doing in biocomposites for conductors.

When we look at the challenges of advanced recycling being high cost, high energy, can polymers or are polymers being developed that would be designed specifically for recycling using advanced recycling methods? I mean things that are easier to break down, in other words.

[Prof. Benoit Lessard]

Thank you for that.

This is where the research is focused. This is where I, personally, in my group, develop next-generation electronic materials based on polymers. One of our interests is more sustainable polymers or polymers that can be, let's say, biodegradable. The idea is, if we're building some smart sensors for packaging, for example, that could detect different compounds that come off decaying meat, it could tell you whether or not your food is spoiling. These packages are going to end up being recycled or degraded.

We're trying to develop new materials or electronic materials from biodegradable materials so that, hopefully, we can make non-toxic materials that will degrade when we put them in the environment. That is the goal.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

It seems to me we're focusing on the chemical breakdown and using that part of the process versus, earlier in the stream, asking what could be compatible with the existing processes. Is that where you're heading?

[Prof. Benoit Lessard]

Yes, it's designing the material for end of use or end of life.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

We now will turn to MP Blanchette-Joncas for two and a half minutes, please.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Lessard, it's time to do some science-based myth busting around plastic toxicity, and I need your help. When plastic decomposes in the environment, can it be toxic?

[Prof. Benoit Lessard]

Yes, it depends on the polymer.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you. Can you give us more information? As I understand it, there are different types of polymers, but I'd like to know whether heat, toxic fumes, carbon monoxide or dioxins, for instance, can be toxic to people or nature when released into the environment.

[Prof. Benoit Lessard]

Many polymer elements can be toxic. It depends on how the polymer is destroyed or recycled. As you said, the vapour that's released can be toxic, and if the product itself breaks apart, it can end up in the environment and be toxic to animals if they absorb it.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I see. From a scientific standpoint, is there any other information about the toxicity of decomposing plastics you'd like to share with the committee?

[Prof. Benoit Lessard]

At the University of Ottawa, one of the areas we would like to move towards, or have started moving towards, is figuring out which components are toxic and which ones aren't. The idea is to start with non-toxic components to make the polymers or plastics we use. We have to think about the end of a polymer's life cycle from the beginning, before it's made.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you.

When it comes to the toxicity of decomposing plastics—microplastics, in particular—I can sum things up this way: They end up in the environment, they are ingested and they wind up in our brains, to say nothing of the additives. Therefore, producing more plastic will do more harm to the environment and human health. It will have a toxic impact.

[Prof. Benoit Lessard]

Yes, more plastic increases the likelihood of that happening.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

All right. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

That's great. Thank you very much.

Now we will turn to MP Cannings for two and a half minutes.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you, and I will now turn to Ms. Marshall.

You mentioned that Nova had invested in Merlin Plastics in British Columbia and also mentioned that we need to really upgrade the volume and quality of the recycled plastic stock that a company like Merlin would use. What do you think are the major challenges there? I know there are a number, but where could we really focus our efforts to really get that volume and sorting quality up to make sure that companies like Merlin can thrive?

[Sarah Marshall]

Our recommendations are to support the EPR legislation across the provinces in Canada and help to scale those in terms of the quantity of plastics and then the quality of those sorted plastics that are available in Canada. Once those plastics can be scaled and sorted, there are recycling technologies that exist today and that can continue to be improved tomorrow to process those into recycled plastic that can be used again. Our challenge is in the infrastructure and collecting that plastic that can be used in recycling again.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Is this one of the continuing challenges Canada has in terms of getting all the provinces online doing the same thing, so a company that wants to work across the country is working with the same materials, the same volumes, the same mandates?

[Sarah Marshall]

Harmonize.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Where is the regulatory effort that needs to happen to make it easier for everybody to do the right thing?