Science and Research Committee on Nov. 5th, 2025

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls—Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON]

Madam Chair, I thank my colleague for bringing forward the motion we've all agreed to.

I want to request that when we go in camera, in the committee business portion, we discuss the analysts actually getting to the preparation of their report so that we can begin working on the actual report.

The data that was requested was never going to be utilized for the purpose of the report. I believe the witness testimony we have is sufficient enough to prepare the report on the criteria for funding.

I'm looking forward to our work on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, MP Baldinelli.

After these two panels, we will go to our analysts and we will go from there.

MP Blanchette-Joncas.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to have your opinion and the consent of my fellow committee members regarding my motion, particularly the alternative to the original motion on disaggregated data that I put forward on October 1. It is about trying to find a confidential and ethical security protocol. I handed it out it to my colleagues before the meeting started today.

I'd like to know if it's possible to discuss the motion, since we've already discussed the motion's subject, to try to find a solution that can reassure people while respecting the criteria, the protocols, and the security, confidentiality and ethics processes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Do you want to bring it forward now?

Please go ahead.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC]

Because the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada, or SSHRC, has already demonstrated its capacity to transmit disaggregated data directly to accredited researchers, in accordance with current ethical and legal requirements.

That the Committee request the government to establish an official and permanent protocol for the secure transfer of data held by the three federal granting councils, namely, the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council, or SSHRC, the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council, or NSERC, and the Canadian Institutes of Health Research, or CIHR, specifically, the disaggregated data for all submitted applications, whether funded or unfunded, across all student and faculty funding programs starting at the master’s level.

That this protocol aims to make accessible, in a disaggregated, anonymized and secure form, all data relating to submitted funding applications, whether funded or not, for all student and faculty funding programs, beginning at the master’s level.

That this include the (1) demographic data of applicants and collaborators, including applicants’ responses to the Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion, or EDI, questionnaire; the (2) applicants’ and collaborators’ institutions and departments; the (3) the language of the application; (4) all data concerning the type of application and project content (year of application, grant program, discipline, title, abstract, and amount requested by the applicant); the (5) identity of the evaluation committee, comments, assessments, and scores assigned to applications for each criterion; and the (6) the application outcome and amount awarded.

That access to these data be granted to accredited researchers who have received approval from a recognized research ethics board, and that such data be shared under a security protocol consistent with the international “Five Safes” model used by Statistics Canada and its Research Data Centres.

That the government assume responsibility for coordinating this process and submit to the Committee, within sixty days, an action plan specifying the responsible repository organization for data retention and transfer, the anonymization and security procedures, as well as the implementation and dissemination timeline.

As I explained, this is a good-faith solution for trying to help researchers get access to data. The concern I have as a parliamentarian is that one of the three granting agencies is on board, while the other two aren't, as I also explained earlier.

As an elected official and a parliamentarian, I must ensure not only that there is accountability, but also that data is kept confidential.

The motion I'm proposing today will reassure people—I hope—and shows that there are questions to be raised about how things are done, possibly about data management and, above all, about data governance.

I hope to have the support of my colleagues on this. I also hope that the people in the scientific community who are listening attentively to us will understand that we don't transfer or transmit data in any old way. We already handle it properly. Now, we simply want to provide a framework for the process.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.

MP McKelvie.

[Jennifer McKelvie, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

I have questions. Can I ask a question?

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Yes.

[Jennifer McKelvie, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

We just went through this exercise when a motion was brought forward and we did not know the cost or the time frame to collect that data. Have you done the due diligence to say how long this will take? We just heard from the vice-chair that he'd like to get on with the preparation of the report, and this will delay it. Do you know how long it will take to collect that data? Do you know how much this will cost? We would like to have the data in both....

There's a cost to collect the data—a new third party is being paid to do this—and a cost to get the translation. Do you know the costs? Given that the last motion was estimated to cost $4 million, we're again in the realm of a substantial amount of money for this request.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, MP McKelvie.

MP Blanchette-Joncas.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Again, I want to reassure people. I don't want to get the data, and I don't want the committee to get the data either. I just want us to find another way for researchers who are acting in good faith—again, I feel like I'm repeating myself, but so be it—who are doing research on research and who already have access to data through one of the three granting agencies. SSHRC has already collected the data. As far as I know, the other granting agencies have done so as well. I understand that passing on the data will add a bit to their workload, but it is vital and necessary to be able to analyze how scientific programs and policies are distributed, in particular. That's what I want to do today.

Once again, researcher Julien Larregue, who appeared publicly before the committee, submitted a brief during the study on research funding criteria. He said openly that as an experienced researcher in the field, he could not help analyze any inequities in the research system if he did not have the necessary data. He said he was capable of doing so, but that he didn't have the full picture, only one out of three components.

What we want is just to create a protocol. The granting agencies already collect data in a variety of ways. Once again, we don't want to get the data or analyze it. We simply want to find a way to ensure that the data these researchers need is transmitted to them in a structured and ethical manner, according to an established protocol. This is already being done, except that data governance is currently a problem. I think there's definitely a way to manage the process better, because two out of three people aren't saying the same thing.

Who is right? I think transparency always wins out, for the scientific community and also for public trust in the way public funds are managed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.

MP McKelvie.

[Jennifer McKelvie, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Madam Chair, I have a couple of questions, but I think I'll just move to adjourn debate on this item.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

This is a dilatory motion.

We'll go to a vote on whether to adjourn debate.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 10; nays 0)

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

We will now proceed to our first panel of witnesses.

We are meeting today to study private sector investment in research and development in Canada.

Witnesses, I would really like to apologize for taking up your time. Sometimes we have to deal with urgent issues. I'm really sorry.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and members. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic. Please mute your microphone when you're not speaking. For those on Zoom, at the bottom of your screen you can select the appropriate channel for interpretation: floor, English or French. All comments should be addressed through the chair.

Welcome to our three witnesses: Dr. Michelle McGinn, associate vice-president, research, Brock University; Nathalie De Marcellis-Warin, chief executive officer, CIRANO; and Gabriel Miller, president and chief executive officer, Universities Canada, who is here in person.

Thank you once again for appearing before the committee. You will each have five minutes for your opening remarks.

We will start with you, Dr. McGinn. You have five minutes for your opening remarks.

[Michelle McGinn, Associate Vice-President, Research, Brock University]

Thank you, Chair.

The question before the committee is how to best promote and grow private sector investment in research and development in Canada. The key message that I want to leave with you is the importance of thinking broadly and thinking regionally as you tackle this question.

The challenges cannot be solved by investing exclusively in major population centres, U15 institutions and multinational companies. It's critical to engage broadly to tackle the issues that our industries, our communities and our nation face. I want to encourage you to recognize comprehensive research institutions as critical drivers for engaging private sector investment.

I'm speaking to you as the associate vice-president, research, at Brock University, which is a comprehensive research institution that was initially founded due to the advocacy, lobbying and fundraising efforts of the local Niagara community. Unionized workers donated directly from their paycheques to build this university to educate their children and the next generations of the workforce who would go on to create opportunities and shape the future of this region. Since those early days, the university and the community have continued to work in partnership to assure our mutual success.

Brock’s origin story is unique, but the resulting university–community partnerships are emblematic of what can and does happen around comprehensive research institutions across this country. Comprehensive research institutions are established partners within our local communities, and we are major players in driving the economic prosperity of our regions. We provide the expertise, talent and infrastructure necessary to build and grow the economy. Our students, faculty and alumni are the entrepreneurs and leaders who launch and expand businesses in our communities.

Their businesses, especially the small and medium-sized enterprises, form the backbone of the Canadian economy and account for more than 48% of the country’s gross domestic product. Given their scale and scope, small and medium-sized enterprises cannot fulfill all of their R and D needs in-house. They need access to the talent and infrastructure located within post-secondary institutions.

How can you help them to build and sustain partnerships with comprehensive research institutions to advance innovation and market share?

First, I urge you to continue to invest in industry–university partnerships through Mitacs, the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council and other such programs that incentivize industry partners to make direct investments in projects with the potential to secure matching federal investments. Industry partners need simple and efficient means to leverage their investments to accomplish more than is possible on their own.

These collaborative projects cement long-lasting relationships between industry and university partners, and they provide phenomenal training ground for student interns, who develop the skills and mindset that will set them on career trajectories within the research and innovation sphere. These partnerships provide mutually beneficial spaces for students and industry partners to witness and learn from each other and to envision their futures together. As Dr. Marc Nantel, vice-president of research, innovation and strategic enterprises at Niagara College, argued in an earlier meeting of this committee, one of the best ways to transfer technology is to hire the brain that solved the problem.

In addition to opportunities for individual businesses, it's also important to engage industry associations in promoting private sector investments. One of the key successes for Brock University’s Cool Climate Oenology and Viticulture Institute is that the projects we undertake are in direct response to the identified research priorities of the grape and wine industry associations.

Collectively, the Grape Growers of Ontario, Ontario Craft Wineries and Wine Growers Ontario came together to form Ontario Grape and Wine Research Inc. to identify and communicate annual research priorities and to coordinate financing through member levies to advance related research and development projects. It's a phenomenal collaborative model that is enhancing the profitability and sustainability of the Ontario grape and wine industry. It's a model that could readily expand to other parts of the country and to other agricultural commodities and far beyond.

Comprehensive research universities, small and medium-sized enterprises, student interns and industry associations all have important roles to play in promoting public sector investments in research and growing Canada’s economy.

Thank you for the opportunity to address the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.

We will now proceed to Madam Nathalie De Marcellis-Warin, the chief executive officer of CIRANO.

You will have five minutes for your opening remarks.

[Nathalie De Marcellis-Warin, Chief Executive Officer, CIRANO]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for inviting me to appear before you today.

The difficulty in bridging the gap between science and the market is not new. It has been hampering Canada’s competitiveness for more than two decades.

Canada has a solid technological and scientific base. Our universities are among the best in the world. Our researchers are internationally recognized, and several sectors—from aerospace to artificial intelligence to life sciences—demonstrate remarkable expertise. Our publicly funded basic research is an essential pillar of this ecosystem. It fuels discoveries, trains talent and creates the foundation for value-creating innovation, but this potential remains underexploited.

The data confirms the extent of this gap. As the world’s ninth-largest economy, Canada has only 24 companies among the 2,000 most innovative companies on the planet, according to the European Innovation Scoreboard 2024, published by the European Union. France has 50, and South Korea has 83.

In the recently released Global Innovation Index 2025, Canada has fallen from 14th to 17th place out of the 139 countries evaluated, mainly due to a decline in its output ranking.

Private investment in research and development, or R and D, accounts for 1.07% of gross domestic product, or GDP, compared to an average of 2% among Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, or OECD, countries. South Korea, cited as a model of science-industry integration, devotes nearly 5% of its GDP to R and D. What is important is that 79% of the investment comes from the private sector. In Canada, it is just under 55%. Small and medium-sized enterprises, or SMEs, which make up 98% of our economic fabric, account for 60% of employment, but only 30% of private R and D spending.

The tax incentive program for scientific research and experimental development was amended in 2024 and again yesterday in the 2025 budget statement. This should help to increase the share of private investment in R and D.

Beyond the financial aspect, companies, and particularly SMEs, need two other components to translate discoveries and inventions into concrete applications that will find a place in the market. The first is support for experimental development. The second is access to a pool of talent and expertise trained in applied research and technology transfer.

The first component concerns support during the phase when research becomes a prototype, a proof of concept, a product or a validated process.

In Europe, this link is filled by organizations such as “research and technology organizations”, or RTOs. These non-profit structures combine infrastructure, knowledge and skills. Their mandate is precisely to translate knowledge into transferable prototypes and patents. The European Association of Research and Technology Organisations, EARTO, which brings together more than 350 RTOs, has shown that they play an essential role in attracting private funding for innovation by sharing the risks of experimental development and linking public research to the needs of businesses.

Canada must take inspiration from this and support this transitional R and D. Initiatives and organizations exist across Canada. We have some in Quebec. Canada would benefit from structuring and supporting a Canada-wide applied research network based on RTO models, capable of working with universities, colleges and businesses, especially SMEs, at every stage of technological development.

The second component concerns talent. According to the Conference Board of Canada, access to a skilled workforce directly influences investment decisions. Businesses invest more in R and D when they can also count on talent trained in interface skills, such as R and D project management, technology transfer or commercialization.

Universities have a key role to play in promoting internships in companies and training in such interface skills.

For university researchers, it is difficult to combine publication goals and the need for rapid results from companies, in addition to intellectual property barriers. Canada could explore models that support applied research and the recognition of hybrid career paths.

The German Fraunhofer model offers a response to these obstacles. More than 75 institutes led by university professors are jointly funded by the government and industry. Fraunhofer researchers and their teams, including master’s and doctoral students, often work on the premises of partner companies. This proximity creates a shared culture of innovation, where applied research, training and commercialization reinforce each other. According to assessments by the German Ministry of Research, every euro invested in these institutes generates more than three euros in economic benefits.

Furthermore, in a context of skilled labour shortages, a study by the Centre for Interuniversity Research and Analysis on Organizations, CIRANO, has shown that, in order to promote the adoption of artificial intelligence, for example, it is also important to focus on skills development in the workplace through mentoring and learning approaches in applied research projects, among other things. These initiatives help strengthen the innovation capacity of businesses. Such programs can be implemented with universities or within the framework of RTOs, which offer an environment conducive to knowledge transfer and practical training for both trainees and business staff.

In conclusion, to bridge the gap between science and the market and increase private investment in R and D, Canada should strengthen support for experimental development, structure and support a Canada-wide network of applied research inspired by RTOs, and invest in partnership-based research talent and knowledge transfer.

Thank you for your attention, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.

We will now proceed to Mr. Miller.

You have five minutes for your opening remarks.

[Gabriel Miller, President and Chief Executive Officer, Universities Canada]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair and honourable members, for inviting me to appear here today.

There are 97 universities of all sizes in Canada. Together, they form a dynamic research ecosystem that is essential to the country’s prosperity.

Canada's universities help power the country's innovation economy. They bring together people, research and ideas that drive progress. Each year, universities train 1.4 million students, who learn how to think critically, work with new technologies and bring innovation into the workplace.

Our members are driving breakthroughs across every field. At the University of Manitoba, Dr. Mark Belmonte's team is developing a fungicide to stop white mould, the top killer of Canada's $30-billion canola crop.

Despite our strengths, however, Canada's commercialization pipeline remains underdeveloped. Our venture capital ecosystem is smaller than the United States', where private investors are more able to take risks on early-stage innovation. Small and medium-sized businesses, which make up 95% of Canada's private sector, often lack the time and capacity to invest in research or pursue patents. As a result, too many Canadian innovations are sold abroad and too much of the economic value leaves our country.

However, there are solutions. Here are four steps that can help close the gaps in our innovation system.

One, expand support for commercialization at universities. Programs such as NSERC's alliance, idea to innovation and lab to market are good models, but they need scaling up. Increasing support, including through CIHR, will help discoveries in health, biotech and other fields reach their full commercial potential.

Two, strengthen university tech transfer and accelerator infrastructure. Funding for intellectual property offices, incubators and accelerator programs helps researchers turn ideas into start-ups that grow in Canada and create jobs here at home.

Three, engage universities in national, sectoral projects. Aligning research and talent development with business priorities and public procurement can accelerate commercialization. Universities welcome the signalling in yesterday's budget that the defence industrial strategy will leverage industry and university research and promote commercialization of the dual-use research that could spin out of it.

Four, partner with universities to advance artificial intelligence. AI can raise productivity across our economy. Universities are already leads in AI research, and they help communities adopt these tools through training and applied projects. Expanding these partnerships will help Canada lead in this fast-moving field.

Canada's universities are ready partners in building a more innovative, competitive and prosperous future. By working together, we can turn Canadian discoveries into Canadian success stories.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak today. I am ready to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Mr. Miller.

Now we will go to our round of questioning. The time with the first panel will be about 37 minutes, and the time with the second panel will also be about 37 minutes. In the first round, we'll probably have just six minutes each. We will see toward the end if we can have a minute or so.

We will go to Ms. DeRidder for six minutes.

[Kelly DeRidder, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I'll be splitting my time with Mr. Baldinelli today because of the change.

My question, through you, Chair, is for Gabriel.

You mentioned funding for accelerator programs, which I don't disagree with at all. There are three wonderful accelerator programs in my community. The problem I see, though, is that we do a very good job of incubating and educating, but because of the current climate—high taxes and red tape—scaling-up isn't happening, so B and C funding isn't available to these start-ups. We're paying taxes to promote and incubate these companies, but then they're leaving Canada because it's easier to scale up in, say, the United States.

What do you think would be a solution to that? How can we make more of an investment climate for scalability here in Canada so there isn't a negative net return on our investments, as things stand today?

[Gabriel Miller]

Through you, Madam Chair, I appreciate the question.

I should say that, in terms of creating a more business-friendly environment, it's important for you to be talking to the business community about that. I'm sure you are. For us, I think what we're most focused on is strengthening the bridge between the research that's being done in our universities and the business community outside, and recognizing that Canada's business community does face obstacles that need to be overcome so that it can benefit from the investments in research and the opportunities to scale them up here and keep more of those benefits here at home.

That's our focus today, but I appreciate your question. I'm very glad to hear that those incubators are providing value in your community.

[Kelly DeRidder, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

They are, for sure.

I'm going to cede my time to Tony. I just wanted to ask that one question of you, Gabriel.

Thank you.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls—Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON]

Thank you to the witnesses for being here this afternoon.

Dr. McGinn, thank you so much for joining us today from Brock University, our local university in Niagara. I'm pleased to say that I'm a proud father of a Brock University student in his second year.

In your remarks, you talked about the establishment of the Cool Climate Oenology and Viticulture Institute in 1996. It really talks to what you mentioned in your remarks, about thinking broadly and regionally in responding to the needs of both the business community and in essence the agricultural community as well.

How does Brock work with the local grape growers and wine producers in Niagara to unlock the private sector research funds to support research, new product development and so on?