Evidence of meeting #35 for Science and Research in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was capabilities.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Manhas  Founder, Terramera Inc.
Peyton  Military Deputy Director, Defence Innovation Accelerator for the North Atlantic (DIANA), North Atlantic Treaty Organization
Asselin  Chief Executive Officer, U15 Canada
Shimooka  Senior Fellow, Macdonald-Laurier Institute, As an Individual
Brett  Deputy Provost and Executive Director of Professional and Continuing Education, Fisheries and Marine Institute of Memorial University of Newfoundland
De Martin  Chief Executive Officer, Industrio AI Inc.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 35 of the Standing Committee on Science and Research. We are meeting today to start our study on Canada's dual use and defence research needs.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and the members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those on Zoom, at the bottom of the screen you can select the appropriate channel: floor, English, or French. I will remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

For this panel, I would like to welcome our three witnesses.

We have Karn Manhas, founder, Terramera Inc., in person. We are also joined by Major-General Paul Peyton, military deputy director, defence innovation, for the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, by video conference.

Welcome.

Our third witness today is Mr. Robert Asselin, chief executive officer, representing U15 Canada, who is appearing in person.

All the witnesses will have five minutes for their opening remarks. Then we will go into a round of questioning.

Welcome to the committee.

We will start with Mr. Manhas.

You will have five minutes for your opening remarks.

Please go ahead.

Karn Manhas Founder, Terramera Inc.

Thank you.

Madam Chair, honourable members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to appear before you.

Canada's sovereignty depends on our ability to measure, understand and protect what nature has given us.

My name is Karn Manhas. I'm the founder of Terramera, Miraterra and Catalera. That's three Canadian companies, 16 years and around 350 patents held here in Canada. My background is biology and law.

I want to start with a question: What is defence actually for?

We talk about defence as borders and fighter jets. Those matter, but they are the means, not the purpose. The purpose of defence is to make sure that Canada keeps operating as a nation, even under disruption from a hostile state, a pandemic, a supply chain collapse or a closed border. Defence is not just about being ready to fight back. It's being resilient enough to keep going. Once we accept that, energy, critical minerals and food all show up immediately.

There are three terms this committee should hold together.

Food sovereignty is our ability to produce our own food. Food security is reliable access to it. Food defence is whether our food system can withstand attack or disruption. The first two we talk about; the third we don't talk about enough.

If the U.S. border closed tomorrow, Canada would have roughly three to five days of fresh food. Lettuce, tomatoes and berries would be gone in 72 hours. We are the fifth-largest agricultural exporter in the world, running our own grocery system with a just-in-time model.

When Russia invaded Ukraine, Ukraine was the breadbasket of Europe. One of the first things Russia did was attack Ukrainian farmland. Clearing landmines spread chemicals across the soil. Ukraine went from feeding Europe to dropping exports by 90%. Thirty per cent of its total agricultural potential has been destroyed. That was not collateral damage; that was strategy. Farmland was the target.

Article 3 of the NATO Treaty names food and water systems as a central pillar of allied civilian resilience. We signed that treaty. We just have to build it into our strategy.

In February, Canada launched its first defence industrial strategy. The build-partner-buy framework is right, but it makes no mention of food. At Davos, the Prime Minister himself said, “A country that cannot feed itself...has few options.”

I'm here to help this committee close that gap.

Here is the opportunity. The Netherlands, a country roughly the size of Vancouver Island, is the second-largest agricultural exporter in the world. Canada is fifth. That gap is not geography. It's not weather. It's strategy and it's fixable.

Canada now has the ability to measure its natural world—soil, food, water—down to parts per million and parts per billion, and not weeks later but in and near the field in minutes. Miraterra has built instruments that can scan soil using advanced spectroscopy and AI connected to millions of scientific publications. That technology was built in Canada with Canadian research institutions. We can monitor soil health, carbon and pathogens, and detect chemical contaminations at parts per billion. We can detect nanoplastics field by field. We can monitor the state of Canadian farmland and Canadian lands.

I call this strategic natural intelligence. It's a defence capability. It exists in Canadian companies and research organizations right now. This is where AI changes the equation. The same instruments that advise a Saskatchewan farmer on fertility and production can detect a contamination event or disruption in Quebec. The same soil data that drives $30 billion of GDP for every per cent of agricultural productivity we can improve is the system that can tell our defence systems whether the land that feeds us is under attack. One system with two missions—that is what dual use is supposed to do.

Canada started building a national soil map in the 1980s. Budget cuts stopped it. We could build a living digital version now at a fraction of the original cost. It would tell us in real time if our farmland was under attack. The cost is less than one to three fighter jets, depending on how deep we want to go.

I have a few recommendations.

First, add strategic biology and food systems as critical investment areas within Canada's dual-use defence research framework. Food and soil intelligence belong inside the build-partner-buy and dual-use architecture.

Second, fund a living national digital soil map. The technology is built in Canada and is ready.

Third, create a sovereign IP retention mechanism with retention covenants that keep Canadian-funded science Canadian-owned long enough to matter. We do not have a research problem. We have a commercialization problem, an adoption problem and a retention problem.

Fourth, increase our growth and adoption of innovative Canadian research and science solutions. Not all will work—we need to be okay with placing bold and strategic bets.

Finally, with ITBs, build a clear policy that allows us to invest in and grow innovative Canadian solutions and critical Canadian infrastructure that put resilience first.

At Davos, the Prime Minister was right. A country that can't feed itself has few options. Let's make sure that's not us.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

We will now proceed to Major-General Peyton, who is joining us virtually.

You will have five minutes for your opening remarks. Please go ahead.

Paul Peyton Military Deputy Director, Defence Innovation Accelerator for the North Atlantic (DIANA), North Atlantic Treaty Organization

Madam Chair, vice-chairs and honourable members of the committee, good afternoon.

Thank you for the opportunity to participate in this committee's work.

It's an honour to speak on behalf of NATO DIANA, the alliance's defence innovation accelerator for the North Atlantic.

For those not familiar with DIANA's program mandate, we exist to close the gap between emerging technology and military capability. Established in 2022, we identify innovators developing breakthrough dual-use solutions and accelerate their adoption, leading to real capability advantage for our soldiers, sailors, aviators, special operators and other security-related entities across the alliance.

NATO DIANA provides a structured alliance-wide pipeline that connects innovators, test environments, trusted capital and end-users, ensuring that promising solutions move from idea to testing, validation and operational use. In collaboration with other NATO entities, we identify priority defence and security needs and communicate those to the industry in the form of problem statements. Solution proposals are rigorously vetted to determine those with the greatest potential. Following national security reviews, those selected receive framework contracts and enter our defence focus accelerator program. This includes curriculum delivery through our network of 16 accelerators—

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

I am sorry for interrupting. I will stop the clock. I think there is some interpretation issue. Let me look into it.

Mr. Deschênes-Thériault, is there—

Guillaume Deschênes-Thériault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

I have no interpretation. I don't know if it's my device. Is it working for the others?

Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, are you getting the interpretation?

Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC

Yes.

Guillaume Deschênes-Thériault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

It's just a disconnection on my side, so it will be okay. We can keep going, and if someone can just look after my device....

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

We will look into it, and then we will start.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

I'm sorry for the interruption. We will start the clock.

Major-General Peyton, please go ahead.

MGen Paul Peyton

Yes, ma'am. Thanks.

As I said, following national security reviews, those that are selected receive framework contacts and enter our defence-focused accelerator program. That includes curriculum delivery through a network of 16 accelerator sites; testing, evaluation, verification and validation at a network of over 200 affiliated test centres; and participation in NATO operational experimentation events.

DIANA has two particularly unique instruments in its program.

The first is the NATO DIANA capital network, which connects vetted NATO-aligned investors with our selected companies, ensuring that they receive the capital required to scale.

The second is the rapid adoption service regulation, which allows NATO and the allies to contract with innovators for follow-on development and prototyping contracts without competition. Also, under this regulation, validated prototypes can be procured through NATO's procurement agencies, again without the need for further competition.

We started program operations in June 2023, with our pilot launch of three challenges, or problem statements, issued to innovators across the alliance. In 2024, that grew to five challenges, and in July 2025, we launched 10 challenge statements. We now have 267 companies that are part of our portfolio, all of which are solutions available to the alliance's defence and security entities through the rapid adoption service.

Our organization's main headquarters is in London, U.K. There is a regional hub in Tallinn, Estonia, and the North American regional office opened here in Halifax in late 2024.

Throughout DIANA's brief history, Canada has played a significant role. As you can tell by my uniform, I'm a Canadian Army officer, one of two general officers in the program, and I've been with DIANA since October 2024. I'm grateful to have the support of a small but very mighty team of Canadian Armed Forces members and civilians, including the regional director for North America, Christine Hanson. These Canadians serve as exceptional ambassadors to our multinational team of professionals from six allied nations here at our Halifax office.

Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, is home to one of DIANA's 16 accelerator sites, the Centre for Ocean Ventures and Entrepreneurship, or COVE, whose team provides outstanding mentorship to assigned DIANA innovators and significant exposure to defence investment opportunities. They work closely with Communitech, from Kitchener-Waterloo, in supporting COVE in program delivery.

Within Canada, 16 test centres located in six provinces provide scientific testing support opportunities to the eligible DIANA program participants. Our expanding program also relies on the generous support of 52 Canadian professionals who loan their expertise and experience to the program, assisting in the down selection of the most promising innovator proposals and providing mentorship during the acceleration phase.

Canadian innovators have been very well represented. In each of the program's iterations, Canada has been overrepresented in applications. In our pilot challenge launched in 2023, 211 of the 1,300 applications came from Canada, the second-highest number across the alliance. There were 44 companies selected to join the program, of which seven were Canadian. In 2024, Canada had the third-highest number of applications, at 339 of 2,600, and six of the 75 companies selected were Canadian. I am very happy to say that in our latest challenge call, we received 3,600 applications, and Canada had the highest number of applications in the alliance, with 574. Of the 150 selected companies that are currently going through the accelerator program, 22 are Canadian.

Canada has also been leading in leveraging the rapid adoption service to enter follow-on development and prototyping contracts. We were the first to exercise this process in 2025. We now have two contracts tendered, three others in which the program arrangements and specifications are being co-developed and an additional three more indications of interest.

It's also worth noting that through an initiative by DRDC called funding for Canadian innovators and accelerators of NATO DIANA, Canadian innovators selected into the program receive grants of up to $200,000 per innovator, which is in addition to the 100,000 euros that selected innovators receive from NATO DIANA. We are the only nation that provides this additional financial support.

DIANA is proving to be a very successful program. Canada is a huge part of that success. The support we receive from the Government of Canada and the level of interest from Canadian companies have been incredible. I think we can be proud of our nation's continued contributions to this important NATO initiative.

I hope that provides some value to your considerations. Thank you again for this opportunity.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thanks a lot.

We will now proceed to Mr. Asselin.

You will have five minutes for your opening remarks. Please go ahead.

Robert Asselin Chief Executive Officer, U15 Canada

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for the invitation to appear today.

Canada has now reached the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, or NATO, defence spending target of 2% of gross domestic product, or GDP. The question now is what we do with it. The answer must centre on strengthening Canadian industrial capacity and securing the innovation assets and sovereign capabilities on which our future resilience will depend.

Canada's economic challenge is well understood. For decades, we have faced a persistent productivity gap relative to our peers. Sustained growth depends not only on generating new ideas, but on translating them into firms, industries and market power that capture value over time.

Canada produces ideas and talent at an impressive level. Our leading research universities, which I'm proud to represent, are national assets to drive innovation and dual-use technologies, but we have been far less effective at turning those strengths into firms that scale, intellectual property that anchors value and industries that generate sustained economic returns.

The issue is not the quality of our inputs; it is our ability to translate them into outcomes. The new defence industrial strategy creates an opportunity to address this gap. By identifying critical technologies linked to sovereign capabilities, it establishes a clear and sustained demand signal. That signal can anchor our research and talent capacity, built through decades of public investment, with a national effort to develop new technological capabilities, but to do so, we must move beyond episodic collaboration and toward structured, long-term partnerships, particularly with Canada's leading research universities.

When talent, research and industry are aligned and connected to real demand, we can build and sustain technological leadership. That is ultimately what the defence industrial strategy makes possible, and that matters because productivity is not simply about inputs: It is about whether an economy can consistently convert knowledge into value at scale.

Canadian universities perform approximately $19 billion in research annually and account for most of the country's research personnel, yet Canada invests less than 5% of federal research spending on defence, compared with roughly 20% across the OECD and more than 50% in the United States. Of that limited funding, only a very small share flows through higher education. In the United States, 15% of federal university research is defence-funded.

In short, Canada has world-class research capacity, including across the dual-use technologies identified in the defence industrial strategy, but lacks the institutional interfaces required to mobilize it toward sovereign capabilities.

Closing that gap is now essential. Countries that have addressed this challenge have done so by building integrated innovation ecosystems that link industry, academia and government through structured and sustained partnership. In the U.S., for example, MIT's Lincoln Laboratory supports advanced defence systems development for the U.S. Department of Defense, while the JPL at Caltech operates as a university-managed lab delivering complex mission-driven systems for NASA.

These models create continuity from discovery to deployment and embed research capacity directly with national missions. Canada has not built comparable interfaces at scale.

If the implementation of the defence industrial strategy treats industry and academia as separate silos, it will miss the opportunity to build pathways that connect talent, research and industry into a true innovation system.

The opportunity before us is not simply to spend more. It is to build a system in which universities, firms and federal government labs, in this case, operate not as disconnected actors, but as an integrated engine of innovation. Creating structured research mechanisms will allow us to meet this moment.

If we get this right, it will not only strengthen our security. It will also help resolve one of Canada's most persistent economic challenges.

Thank you.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you.

We will begin our first round of questioning with MP Baldinelli for six minutes.

Please go ahead.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls—Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Before I begin, I'd like to ask you and our clerk a question.

As part of the study, we had extended invitations to ministers to appear on this important study, which, may I remind all members, was initiated by a motion by my Liberal friends. We had invited the Minister of Industry, the Minister of National Defence, the Minister of Government Transformation, Public Works and Procurement and the Secretary of State for Defence Procurement to appear.

This is an important study. I guess we will all agree to that. The government has announced $81.1 billion in spending over a five-year period on defence. We've also released the new defence industrial strategy.

I'm just asking you and the clerk about the status of these invitations and the reasons that these individuals can or can't appear.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you.

I'm sorry, MP Baldinelli. We have a replacement clerk. He will send a message and try to find out what the response is in regard to the invitations extended.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls—Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON

Madam Chair, could you please share that information and the reasons with the committee members by email?

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Yes.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls—Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON

There are only four meetings. If we could obtain that information as quickly as possible, that would be good.

I'll begin with you, Mr. Asselin.

Thank you for appearing here today. Thank you for your work on behalf of the U15.

It's interesting. Some of the concerns that have been raised at several studies have a certain theme to them. It's not about the quality of the work or the researchers that we have, but about bridging that gap—that notion of the valley of death and taking that quality idea, the IP that's being generated here, and bringing it to fruition in terms of seeing it scaled and becoming a proudly Canadian company.

What would you say is the current state of co-operation between Canadian universities and colleges and the defence industry?

4:05 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, U15 Canada

Robert Asselin

This is a muscle that has been atrophying for decades. When you look at the history of Canada, during the Second World War the National Research Council emerged. I think a lot of our leading research universities at that time were involved in the war effort, but given the decades of cuts at the Department of Defence, everything being relative, those links have slowly but surely been atrophying. That's not to say there are not researchers working in research, but I think this is something we have to rejuvenate as a country. This is something we have to stimulate.

We now have the framework, the defence industrial strategy, to do so. The idea is to create these new interfaces and these new pathways that don't exist between universities, the defence department and the Government of Canada in general.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls—Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON

Thank you.

General Peyton, you explained DIANA beautifully, as you did the remarkable work that I believe is taking place there and the active participation of Canadian companies that are in there. Are there ways to have greater co-operation, for example, to see that colleges and universities are able to participate in that? Mr. Asselin talked about structured systems. Are there ways to do that? You have the incubators. You have the innovation hubs and the notion of taking that great idea and then bridging that gap. Does DIANA play a role in that at all?

MGen Paul Peyton

Thanks for the question, sir. I think it's a really good one.

It's interesting. We do bring together academia into the program. From a Canadian nexus, we actually deal with some of our universities as we're trying to find the right and the best test centre facilities available where we can bring our innovators. There have been recommendations certainly coming out of Ontario with regard to quantum support for some of our innovators who work in that area.

I think there are more opportunities for us to work with academia. When I look at the structure of the DIANA program, we brought academia into the program. In fact, many of our challenge managers come from the academic community. They still have the linkages within those communities.

There are still more opportunities for us to engage from NATO DIANA with academia. Certainly, from previous experience in the Canadian Forces and in my previous job, that was one of the things we identified. There ought to be better opportunities for collaboration.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls—Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON

Take the facility in Halifax as an example. Does it work closely with the universities in Nova Scotia on the work that's taking place there?

MGen Paul Peyton

We have some relationships with the universities here in Nova Scotia. Are we working as tightly with them right now? Currently, we have a pretty small footprint in the Halifax office. As we build that out, we'll certainly work with the universities. That's one of the expectations we have from the regional office here.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

You have 40 seconds left.