Evidence of meeting #36 for Science and Research in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was procurement.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Belzile  Acting Executive Director, Research, École de technologie supérieure
Shorey  President and Chief Executive Officer, Invest Ottawa
Pawluk  President and Chief Executive Officer, RaceRocks
Church  Associate Professor, Department of Geodesy and Geomatics Engineering, University of New Brunswick, As an Individual
Huebert  Professor, Centre for Military, Security and Strategic Studies, University of Calgary, As an Individual
Doyle  Executive Director, Tech-Access Canada

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Vincent Ho Conservative Richmond Hill South, ON

We're talking about space procurement, procurement for the space economy. I'm talking about a buy Canadian rule that the government allegedly implements. How is that not related? It's very related. Of course, sovereignty means not being dependent on foreign countries for our space capabilities. That's something worth pursuing.

The Liberal Prime Minister gave a glowing speech, a very vague speech, at Davos, pretty much taking a swipe at what he calls “hegemons” without really mentioning which countries he's referring to and keeping it vague so he can play both sides. I'll leave it to the Liberal Prime Minister to discuss that, or maybe the Liberal members know which countries he's referring to.

Space matters. It matters for a number of things—for our defence, for our Arctic, for things like communications. It matters for disaster response, for things like agriculture, navigation, weather forecasting, telecommunications and national security and of course for the future of our economy. When we talk about the economy, we mean we want to talk about the Canadian economy for Canadians, not for a select few hand-picked projects that benefit Liberal insiders.

Canada has a proud history in space. We built the Canadarm. We helped define robotics in orbit. Canadian astronauts have inspired generations of young people to look at the stars and imagine something greater than themselves. Canadian scientists, engineers, machinists, programmers and entrepreneurs have made real contributions to humanity's exploration of space. Parts designed and made by Canadians are in the International Space Station, which is still orbiting Earth.

We should not be anti-space and shut down things like the $200-million space pad, which wasn't really a space pad. We thought we got a launch pad, but taxpayers ended up getting a gravel pit, which some are characterizing as a money pit.

This motion is not anti-science, although Liberals have accused us of being anti-science, and it's not anti-research. It's very much pro-research. We want to make sure the research money is not going to waste.

It's not anti-innovation. It is very much pro-innovation. It's also pro-accountability. “Accountability”, of course, is a word that does not exist in the vocabulary of Liberals. As a matter of fact, that word needs to be removed from their vocabulary before they buy their Liberal Party membership card. It's pro-taxpayer, making sure that for taxpayers—everyday Canadians who are working day in and day out to keep our country afloat—tax dollars are spent properly.

We also want to make sure we have results to deliver for Canadians, because what we've seen instead is a lot of Liberal rhetoric. It's pretty egregious. The current Liberal Prime Minister sings a lot of rhetoric, even more than the last Liberal prime minister, but he has nothing to show for it. I mean things like pipelines, for example. There is a lot of rhetoric on energy and infrastructure, but not a whole lot of results.

He seems to eat his own words. On trade, at first it was elbows up. Then it was elbows down, and who cares? Then it was, “Our relationship with the United States is a rupture, a weakness.” Then it was, “We're stronger together.” That was a lot of rhetoric from the self-proclaimed master negotiator, but not a whole lot of results. There's still no trade deal. Tariffs have doubled and tripled, and our manufacturing sectors and workers are being hit. Nobody on the Liberal benches seems to care, because they collect their paycheques regardless.

That's the thing between the private sector and the public sector. In the private sector, if your business fails and doesn't do well because there's no market for your idea or your product, you don't succeed. You go bankrupt or you have to close down. However, under Liberal ideology, the Liberals just keep printing money at the expense of taxpayers. They keep borrowing at the expense of taxpayers. They keep printing money—

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

I'm sorry for interrupting, MP Ho. Just one second, as one of our witnesses has to leave.

Thank you, Ms. Shorey, for appearing before the committee. I know you have to leave, as you have other commitments. I'm sorry for this. You are free to leave.

MP Ho, go ahead, please.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Vincent Ho Conservative Richmond Hill South, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Going back to my point, our motion is pro-space and space exploration. If Canada is going to be serious about the space sector, we need a serious government, but we don't have a serious government. I've listed some examples of how the government is not serious. It can't be built on Liberal press releases, a house of cards, insider arrangements and a $200-million blank cheque to a Liberal-connected firm for what's being currently described as a concrete pad, a gravel lot.

This is for a promise of “someday, maybe”. Using the words of the Prime Minister, it is possible but not probable, and then it's probable but not quite possible. He has a good way of playing on words so he can speak out of both sides of his Liberal mouth and somehow try to put up these illusions. Canadians can see through the smoke and mirrors, these illusions that the Liberal Prime Minister is trying to put up. Again, it's for this prospect that maybe Canada will be able to launch rockets from home.

This is real money. This is not Monopoly money. I know the Liberals are trying to devalue our currency so much that our currency sometimes feels like Monopoly money to some spectators, because our currency isn't worth much when there are no investments in Canada and no exports from Canada. They're killing our industry. What drives the valuation of our currency to appreciate, which may help bring down the cost of living, is if other countries buy our exports and have to sell their currencies to buy Canadian dollars to buy our exports, or if they invest in Canada. Again, they have to buy Canadian dollars—which would drive up the value of our currency—in order to make investments in Canada and create jobs.

Of course, Liberals are very keen to pass anti-job, job-killing, anti-growth policies that drive away investment, which drives away businesses and thwarts exports. It's a vicious cycle, as we've seen, with the dollar so weak now compared to the U.S. dollar for prolonged periods. This is not just some fluctuation year to year. It has been 11 years of our Canadian dollar being so weak.

This $200 million is not just Monopoly money, to come back to my point. It's taxpayer money. It's money collected on the backs of families who are already struggling to afford groceries, food, rent, mortgage payments, gas and heating—all the basic necessities of life. For families with young children, it's money for baby formula, diapers and other essentials.

What are taxpayers getting? What are they actually getting? That is the basic question about—

Juanita Nathan Liberal Pickering—Brooklin, ON

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

MP Nathan has a point of order.

Juanita Nathan Liberal Pickering—Brooklin, ON

Madam Chair, I want to know what the Conservative member for Richmond Hill South is going on about. We have spent so much taxpayer money to bring so many witnesses from around Canada, yet we have not asked a single question of them about the study we are currently doing. He is going on about a study that we are in agreement with that's to come—

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

That is debate. Thank you.

MP Ho, go ahead.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Vincent Ho Conservative Richmond Hill South, ON

First of all, I don't believe that's a point of order, but she said what she said already.

This is very relevant to the discussion, because we're talking about procurement using taxpayer dollars—money taxed on the backs of Canadians. We want to talk about the human element of this. It's not some abstract spreadsheet. These are real people, real families.

I have lots more to say, but I understand we have only limited time and resources, so I'll give up the floor so we can move on to some of the other members of the committee and allow them to speak to the motion. Then they can all get a chance to discuss how important space procurement is, or procurement in general—real procurement, not procurement where taxpayer money is siphoned for Liberal insiders.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you, MP Ho.

I have four people on the speaking list.

MP Deschênes-Thériault, you are next.

Guillaume Deschênes-Thériault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

I'll be brief, Madam Chair.

I deplore my colleague's behaviour today. This shows a lack of respect for our work and for the witnesses, who have travelled from far away at the taxpayers' expense. We are conducting an important study on Canada's needs regarding dual-use research and defence. My colleague's motion could have been resolved in a few minutes. We are in favour of the motion.

I have nothing further to add on that point. We've already wasted enough time today.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you.

Next I have MP Eyolfson.

Doug Eyolfson Liberal Winnipeg West, MB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to echo the previous comments. We have already indicated that we are in support of this motion. We have wasted enough of our witnesses' valuable time. I think it has been an embarrassment that committee time has been used for no good purpose. The member from Richmond Hill has been spending a tremendous amount of time talking as if we're going to oppose this motion when we have said we're going to support it.

This has been a tremendous waste of our witnesses' time.

To the witnesses, I apologize.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you, MP Eyolfson.

I have next MP Baldinelli and then MP Noormohamed.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls—Niagara-on-the-Lake, ON

Madam Chair, for the sake of brevity, I would like to see us get to the vote as quickly as possible.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Go ahead, MP Noormohamed.

Taleeb Noormohamed Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

I would agree with my friend opposite. We would have gladly supported this motion—we didn't need the YouTube video—and we're happy to get to a vote.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Next is MP Rana.

Aslam Rana Liberal Hamilton Centre, ON

I would like to go to a vote. We have already seen lots of wasting of time. Our honourable colleague wasted a lot of time.

We apologize to our witnesses. We've wasted their time, and we've wasted our nation's time.

Please, go to a vote.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you.

MP Ho, go ahead.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Vincent Ho Conservative Richmond Hill South, ON

That's fine. I'd like to go to a vote. I wish the Liberals would apologize every time they speak for two or three hours on something. I think this is very important to Canadian taxpayers. I don't think it's a waste of time. The Liberals should be apologizing to taxpayers, but I'm happy to cede the floor now and move to a vote.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

With that, the list of speakers is exhausted, and I will ask the clerk to take the vote on MP Ho's motion.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0)

For the last panel, we started the six-minute round with MP Ho. After that, we were not able to finish the first round. Because of the time now, we have three witnesses for the second panel, so I suggest that we get the opening remarks from all three and then proceed with our first round. The Liberals and the Bloc are left in the six-minute round. Then we will see what time we have.

One of the witnesses from the first round had to leave. Now all of them will be here for these rounds of questioning.

I will welcome our three new witnesses for our second panel.

We are joined by Dr. Ian Church, associate professor, department of geodesy and geomatics engineering, University of New Brunswick. He's here in person.

We have Dr. Robert Huebert, professor, Centre for Military, Security and Strategic Studies, University of Calgary. He has joined us by video conference.

We also have Mr. Ken Doyle, executive director, representing Tech-Access Canada, here in person.

We will begin with Dr. Church.

Please, go ahead. You will have five minutes for your opening remarks. Thank you.

Ian Church Associate Professor, Department of Geodesy and Geomatics Engineering, University of New Brunswick, As an Individual

Hello, Madam Chair.

I'm here today to offer the perspective of a researcher who has been working in dual-use technology and application development. As an associate professor in geodesy and geomatics engineering at the University of New Brunswick, where I run the Ocean Mapping Group, I focus on measuring the depths and features of our oceans using sonar systems and on applied ocean physics simulations in ports and harbours. Both have a dual-use focus.

My research involves collaborating with other researchers, industry partners and government agencies across Canada, with a specific focus on the Arctic and lately the Antarctic. This work has enhanced navigational safety and advanced our knowledge of the ocean environment, providing a foundation for ocean science, maritime operations and sovereignty.

Today, my statement will address three actionable priorities. The first is improving collaboration among ocean dual-use technology stakeholders. The second is securing targeted funding to fill gaps in the technology readiness levels. The third is integrating effective training at every stage of the research-to-operations process.

Connections between industry, academia, federal science departments and the Department of National Defence need to be improved. This includes establishing focused consortia that bridge these organizations to align with specific military priorities, ensuring that the specialized expertise found within these groups is fully integrated into our national defence strategy.

Accessible funding programs that prioritize dual-use technology can address these gaps. Ideally, these programs should be integrated into foundational initiatives at the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council—NSERC—and provincial funding agencies. A short-term goal could be to create a dedicated dual-use initiative within the NSERC alliance program.

In my experience, DRDC—Defence Research and Development Canada—is often not involved in these projects, making engagement challenging for many researchers. Although DRDC delivers vital scientific contributions, its broad mandate can lack domain-specific focus, leading to a disconnect between research and operational systems.

In the marine sector, to better connect DND, DRDC, academia and industry, Canada could look to the U.S. Office of Naval Research, the Naval Research Laboratory and the Naval Oceanographic Office as a structural model for funding, development and operationalization of marine dual-use research, data and technology.

Rather than replicating this model, however, Canada should seek to improve upon it by ensuring that innovations are mission-ready for military applications and contribute to national economic growth. Importantly, integrating first nations and Inuit priorities into research can transform defence-related projects such as Arctic sea-floor mapping into collaborative efforts that reinforce both sovereignty and community well-being, which will surpass the U.S. approach.

Infrastructure and facilities that support both classified and unclassified joint research are essential. While the defence innovation secure hubs have demonstrated this approach, it is important to ensure that these facilities remain accessible to all researchers and are supported by additional programs that address a range of current and emerging technologies and needs.

For instance, the Royal Canadian Navy's Arctic and offshore patrol ships could be considered secure hubs and could be equipped to collect critical marine operational data by installing an ice-protected multibeam sonar system, for example, as implemented on the Canadian Coast Guard AOPS. They could then be used to support innovative dual-use marine research and improve situational awareness.

It is essential to address the entire pipeline, from research to operations, including comprehensive training as a key element. Supporting dual-use projects requires establishing sustainable research programs rather than isolated projects. Within these programs, we can recruit and train students who will remain in the field and advance into leadership roles within collaborative organizations.

When recruiting highly qualified personnel, it is important to provide clear career pathways to attract suitable candidates for graduate positions, including those eligible for Canadian security clearances. In my experience, adequate funding for these positions is a critical factor in successfully recruiting Canadian candidates. There are also opportunities to tailor educational programs for dual-use applications, as demonstrated by long-standing degree programs in the department of geodesy and geomatics engineering at UNB for the DND mapping and charting establishment.

Dual-use research should serve as Canada's competitive advantage. By modernizing funding mechanisms, infrastructure, inter-agency collaboration and training, Canada can develop a strategy that transforms research into operational capability and economic growth.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you.

We will now go to Mr. Huebert.

Please go ahead. You have five minutes for your opening remarks.

Robert Huebert Professor, Centre for Military, Security and Strategic Studies, University of Calgary, As an Individual

Thank you very much, Madam Chair and members of the committee.

As a political scientist, I'd also like to thank you for giving me some first-hand observation of parliamentary procedure.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

It's Parliament in action.