Evidence of meeting #36 for Science and Research in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was procurement.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Professor, Centre for Military, Security and Strategic Studies, University of Calgary, As an Individual
I can go on if you'd like.
Conservative
Jagsharan Singh Mahal Conservative Edmonton Southeast, AB
Thank you.
By politicizing this issue, the Liberals are failing to secure Canadian skies. How can Canada credibly claim to defend its sovereignty if it allows political considerations to delay the aircraft? Its own defence assessments have repeatedly identified it as the best option.
Professor, Centre for Military, Security and Strategic Studies, University of Calgary, As an Individual
Thank you for the question. You've just helped me make my point about our dearth of understanding regarding how the process goes.
We could actually track the length of time we have spent on trying to make a decision on the best selection from a strategic and warfighting capability, and this selection isn't just my assessment. We've seen this come out of DND. We've seen this come out of the air force. We've seen this come from almost all of the serious academics who have looked at this issue.
The question applies over both Conservative and Liberal governments: Why can't we be like Denmark? Why are we not able to make the decision? The Danes, following the beginning of the Ukrainian war in 2014, changed their decision not to have a fighter aircraft, and within two years, they made the decision to get the F-35s.
My question, of course, is this: Why is the political process, from both Conservative and Liberal governments, so long that we have not been able to emulate our Nordic allies and friends? It comes to the point of our understanding, because I don't have an answer for you. I can't point to any study that says why it's happened, and I'll connect it to a question for Dr. Church.
The Senate report that came up in 2005 said that we had 1% of the Arctic charted to modern standards. Today, that number is 17%. I come back to you and say that the Coast Guard has always been saying that it wants to do multibeam sonar missions so that it can map when it goes and does anything, but the political decision—and again, this goes across Conservative and Liberal governments—has been to not provide the funds to the Coast Guard to allow it to do the mapping. At a 17% increase over 20 years, that means in another 20 years we'll be at 34%.
My question to you is, why don't we understand why political decisions have not been made for something that, at least for most of us, would seem quite obvious?
Conservative
Jagsharan Singh Mahal Conservative Edmonton Southeast, AB
I think you would agree with me that this Liberal government has been in power for the last 11 years now and the demographics have changed quite drastically in these 11 years. I think you have already answered that it would be more incumbent upon the government to make quick decisions and not to prolong or delay these procurements so this needed equipment can be provided to the military and air force in a timely fashion.
Dr. Church, I will come to you now. Across three oceans, Canada has the largest coastline in the world. Can you describe the unique challenges that Canada faces when it comes to securing our coast and port infrastructure?
Associate Professor, Department of Geodesy and Geomatics Engineering, University of New Brunswick, As an Individual
We have a lot of unique challenges. All of our infrastructure is really focused on the east and west coasts and has historically not been focused on our largest and probably most strategically important area, which is the Arctic.
I started working in the Arctic in 2005 on board the Canadian Coast Guard ship Amundsen, doing science and mapping up there when it was the only vessel that was equipped to collect data on the seabed within our Arctic environment. We made do with the facilities we had, but it's been excellent to see investments come in for improving our Coast Guard infrastructure and the ships and port infrastructure in the Arctic in order to make sure we are surveilling those areas.
It is concerning to see the Royal Canadian Navy talk about operational needs in the Arctic and not having the capacity to actually operate in most of the Arctic because of the ice conditions. They're going to be relying heavily on the Coast Guard. I think now is the time to think critically about how those two groups are going to work together and balance both military interests and scientific and sovereignty interests in that area.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
Thank you, Mr. Church.
The time is up for MP Mahal.
We will now proceed to MP Deschênes-Thériault for five minutes.
Please, go ahead.
Liberal
Guillaume Deschênes-Thériault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
Thank you.
Dr. Church, you're the primary investigator on a project that will enhance security and support the growth and productivity of the port of Belledune and port Saint John in New Brunswick. You've received some funding through our defence industrial strategy for this project.
I would like to hear how this project is a great example of how we can, at the same time, protect our critical infrastructure and support our economic growth.
Associate Professor, Department of Geodesy and Geomatics Engineering, University of New Brunswick, As an Individual
We're very proud of that project, and we're really looking forward to seeing how it can evolve.
We have two ports in New Brunswick that are fantastic opportunities. They're locations with huge growth potential, but also big operational challenges. Port Saint John, for example, is the most interesting port oceanographically in the world, in my opinion, with the tides of the Bay of Fundy and the Saint John River, the different modes of operation and the history within the port. However, it's a reality that in most ports across the country and the world, we know very little about what's going on underneath the water. That's a scientific and operational concern for the port, but it's also a security concern for understanding the subsea environment.
If we can learn more about monitoring, predicting and simulating what's going on in those ports and can monitor things from a defence perspective knowing what's happening with them, while at the same time ensuring that the exact same simulations we're running and data we're collecting are used to help the ports bring vessels in and out and improve the logistics of the ports, it is the perfect example of crossing that boundary.
Liberal
Guillaume Deschênes-Thériault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
Thank you.
I would like to hear how our defence industrial strategy, especially the research component, is an opportunity for a university such as UNB, knowing that there's already some expertise in defence at UNB and that UNB is located near the Gagetown military base.
Associate Professor, Department of Geodesy and Geomatics Engineering, University of New Brunswick, As an Individual
It's a huge opportunity for universities like UNB. UNB is unique in that we're not in the U15, but we have had a huge focus on defence for a long time. We've invested in having people collaborate with the defence side of things, with base Gagetown being right there.
There's a huge opportunity for training specifically, but there are also a lot of opportunities to take the amazing research happening there, which is quite unique—and it's not just UNB where this is happening—and consider some of the defence applications of it and build it into those pathways.
Liberal
Guillaume Deschênes-Thériault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
Thank you.
I will pass my time to MP Nathan.
Liberal
Juanita Nathan Liberal Pickering—Brooklin, ON
Thank you so much to my colleague.
I want to ask this question of you, Anita.
As a Canadian indigenous-owned company operating in a dual-use space, what barriers do you face in moving innovation technologies from development to federal procurement and deployment?
President and Chief Executive Officer, RaceRocks
Mostly, it's about the capital to move the project from a concept to commercialization. Also, it's about the infrastructure to support that. Technical infrastructures are getting more expensive. Hopefully there will be funding available for that. Also, security and cybersecurity are really hard for a small business to keep up with and are very expensive.
Liberal
Juanita Nathan Liberal Pickering—Brooklin, ON
Canada's defence industrial strategy emphasizes sovereignty and domestic capability. What specific investments or policy changes would help Canadian companies like RaceRocks scale and compete globally while supporting Canada's national security needs?
President and Chief Executive Officer, RaceRocks
The ITB program is a really great program to support small and medium-sized businesses. Working alongside a defence prime, learning from them and having the support of their infrastructure is definitely something that I have found to be very advantageous and supportive for RaceRocks in the last 10 years.
Liberal
Juanita Nathan Liberal Pickering—Brooklin, ON
If you could recommend one concrete action this committee should prioritize to strengthen Canada's dual-use innovation ecosystem over the next five years, what would it be?
President and Chief Executive Officer, RaceRocks
To Mr. Doyle's comments, it's definitely investing in small to medium-sized businesses and supporting them to work together. It's also working with the larger defence primes, but definitely seeing where their technologies can work with other small to medium-sized businesses.
Liberal
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
We will now proceed to MP Blanchette-Joncas for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
Thank you.
Mr. Doyle, in your opinion, is enough being invested in the capacity to design products here?
Executive Director, Tech-Access Canada
From the early 1960s to the 1980s, that was the case. However, I think that, with globalization and other factors, there have been incentives to move production elsewhere. Now it will be a major challenge to rebuild the capacity we had 50 years ago.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
By weakening regional applied research and technology transfer infrastructure, are we increasing our dependence on foreign technologies and suppliers?