Evidence of meeting #5 for Science and Research in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was excellence.
A video is available from Parliament.
Visiting Scholar, Declaration of Independence Center for the Study of American Freedom, University of Mississippi, As an Individual
A thousand per cent.... I could show you tons of emails where someone wrote to me saying, “I was thinking of going to academia, but I know that I am—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
I'm sorry. Your time is up.
We will now proceed to MP Jaczek for five minutes.
Please go ahead.
Liberal
Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON
Thank you so much, Chair.
Dr. Hasan, I would like to bring you into this conversation. You've obviously heard the other panellists in this hour, and perhaps you heard some of the earlier testimony when we started today.
I would say that there has been some agreement that in the design of the study, diversity in terms of EDI is useful to the content of the research, and also, to a certain extent, that having diverse teams is of value with regard to training and new researchers and so on.
A lot of the conversation today seems to be related very much to the Canada research chairs and various equity targets and so on. Do you have some thoughts on the current situation as it relates to Canada research chairs?
Assistant Professor, School of Gender, Sexuality and Women’s Studies, York University, As an Individual
I want to start off by reminding everyone that the reason why these programs have come about—regardless of how imperfect they are—is that they're trying to solve a problem, and that problem is pretty well documented. I have a list of studies I can cite, which I'm happy to submit to you. There are studies about gender biases in research funding awards. There are studies about biases against people who are racialized in research studies and about the experiences of faculty and post-doctoral fellows from marginalized communities. Studies document how there was, is and continues to be a problem of bias and prejudice in some of our funding programs in Canada, so these are coming about in the spirit of solving a problem.
I'm absolutely against anything that tokenizes or would tokenize me, for example, as a south Asian Muslim woman, but I'm also against things that are performative and don't actually work. The reality is—as the research and evidence very clearly show—that diversity in research produces a better impact in research studies: it produces better innovation. It widens our epistemology, the way that we think, the way people address problems and the way we include more and more people. We're trying to address an issue of exclusion here, and a pretty serious one that is very well documented.
I don't think that having Canada research chairs who are dedicated to certain areas of research is that unusual. We have focused grants on things like cancer research, AI, cancer survivorship and cannabis usage. There are so many areas where the research community decides, through various processes, some of the pressing problems of our time and how we can leverage research to try to solve them. I don't see anything wrong with Canada research chairs who are focused on specific issues. I think it's helpful to start building research communities on specific topics that require our urgent attention.
Liberal
Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON
Are you aware of any peer-reviewed studies that show that diversity initiatives actually harm research quality?
Assistant Professor, School of Gender, Sexuality and Women’s Studies, York University, As an Individual
I am not aware of any peer-reviewed studies that demonstrate that. In fact, I know more studies have shown the opposite. I know you've heard from Dr. Malinda Smith, who was here a few days ago to testify in front of this committee. She has done incredible work on this topic, figuring out how we understand the role of diversity in research.
Liberal
Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON
Thank you so much for that.
Perhaps you could elaborate a little bit further on some of the benefits of actually establishing targets. Our analysts have given us some of the information as it relates to Canada research chairs. Over time, they seem to show that various groups that have been under-represented are actually increasing in numbers. Could you speak a little bit to some of those groups?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
I'm sorry for interrupting. The time is up.
I would request, Dr. Hasan, that you please respond to that question by submitting your answer, which we will then circulate to all the members.
We will end this panel with Mr. Blanchette-Joncas for two and a half minutes.
Please go ahead.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Professor Saad, when Ottawa now talks about inclusive excellence, isn't that a contradiction in terms? Isn't the concept of excellence being stripped of its scientific meaning by redefining it on ideological grounds?
Visiting Scholar, Declaration of Independence Center for the Study of American Freedom, University of Mississippi, As an Individual
You're absolutely right; the terms “excellence” and “inclusion” don't belong in the same sentence.
Again, some people on this panel have said that there is unequivocal evidence that supports the idea that diverse research teams lead to better outcomes. It depends how you measure diversity.
As I mentioned earlier, if you measure diversity as, for example, interdisciplinarity, then that form of diversity does improve scientific outcomes, because you're getting people who have different areas of expertise joining together to solve a common problem. However, I would challenge anybody on this committee to tell me how whether I am queer or not will help me improve quantum computing. I'm open to hearing that explanation, but until you show me how my sexual orientation affects my understanding of the distribution of prime numbers, I don't think those metrics affect research excellence, and they should be made null and void.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
Professor Saad, wouldn't imposing ideological criteria in hiring and funding undermine Canada's international credibility by giving the image of a politicized rather than meritocratic scientific system?
Visiting Scholar, Declaration of Independence Center for the Study of American Freedom, University of Mississippi, As an Individual
Absolutely. Many people have written to me to ask whether they should come to Canada. They have read my material and ask whether it is as bad as people say that it is.
I say that there are wonderful things in Canada. There are amazing researchers in Canada, but, yes, we are an ultra-woke country. We do suffer from stage 4 suicidal empathy. If you are white, if you are heterosexual or if you are Christian, good luck, because you're going to be behind the eight ball.
Those are not words I should ever be uttering. Anybody should be able to participate in the democratic pursuit of science.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
Thank you.
With that, I would like to thank all four witnesses. I'm sorry about some technical issues, but thank you for joining us. I know it's almost close to midnight for Mr. Kaufmann.
Before we end this, I'd like to inform all the members that next week we will not be having a meeting on Monday, as Parliament is not sitting.
The next meeting of the committee will be October 1, and we will have the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council, the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada and the Canadian Institutes of Health Research appearing for one hour, as per the motion adopted on Wednesday, September 17. For the second hour, we will be having committee business.
Thank you to the witnesses. Do I have consensus to adjourn the meeting?