Special Committee on Indigenous Women Committee on May 2nd, 2013

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Does the missing persons database have aboriginal-specific data?

[The Chair, Conservative, Stella Ambler]

Just a yes or no, if you can.

[Shawn Tupper]

Aboriginal?

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Does the $10 million missing persons database you mentioned have a specific component identifying missing aboriginal people?

[Shawn Tupper]

Where they know that information, it's input into the database, but there will be gaps in that data.

[The Chair, Conservative, Stella Ambler]

Thank you very much.

Over to Ms. McLeod for five minutes.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I have a whole host of questions, but I'll start with Stats Canada. You gave us a snapshot. We've heard about a myriad of programs, and I know the policing program started many years ago. Can you talk a little about trends? We've apparently spent significant dollars. Are the trends having any positive impact on the statistics you've shown us, compared to five and 10 years ago?

[Rebecca Kong, Chief, Correctional Services Program, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada]

In speaking about the police-reported information, as you can see from the slides, there is a lot unknown about aboriginal identity. We do get data from first nations police services. I don't have with me right now any trends in those, but we would be happy to provide them to the committee.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

That would be really important. Again, we're hearing about programs to see if there's an impact.

I think many people here have had significant and terrible memories. I look back to a health care career also. At that time, people's care card had some identification information. At that time, I remember the first nations community decided they really didn't want that to be part of their care card. Quite appropriately, that was removed. Certainly from the health care perspective, it created new challenges in terms of really understanding the incidence of different emergencies or chronic diseases.

Could you talk a bit about what your challenges are, and what New Zealand has done? It sounds like Dr. Bennett was indicating she was aware that New Zealand was having fewer challenges.

[Rebecca Kong]

I can comment briefly.

I'm not completely aware of what's happening in New Zealand, but I know that they are far more advanced than we are in the collection of that data. Part of that is having the community buy-in and having public relations and public education campaigns to explain to the indigenous people there the advantages of providing that information.

The issue of collecting information on aboriginal identity of victims through police-reported data had been long-standing. From 2001 to 2010, Statistics Canada worked with partners in the policing community and in the ministries across the country to try to improve the information. We tried to put in place some recommendations. We did some consultations with communities in Saskatchewan. In the end, there were still issues regarding internal policing policies around providing the data and concerns about the quality of the information based on visual identification. There were also concerns in terms of the actual collection of the information and whether that question is always asked.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

My next question is about some of the very disturbing statistics you presented. Is there any delineation between at least on and off reserve? You said you couldn't do micro areas, but....

[Cathy Connors, Assistant Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada]

For the self-reported data that we have on victimization, we are not able to separate the information for on and off reserve because the sample sizes get really small. We have to remember that this is a survey of the general population. Basically, we're surveying everybody in Canada, and we're trying to produce estimates for everybody in Canada.

The aboriginal population, as you know, is about 4% of the Canadian population, so you could expect approximately 4% of the sample of that survey to be aboriginal people. The smaller the numbers get of records that we have, the less able we are to produce detailed information.

[The Chair, Conservative, Stella Ambler]

Thank you, Ms. McLeod.

We'll move over to Ms. Ashton for five minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Thank you very much.

On a more general note, just a few days ago the UN Periodic Review came out with a report. Part of what was made public were submissions by 20 countries. These are countries that we look to as common-minded countries: Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, and the list goes on. All of those 20 countries expressed real concern about what Canada is not doing when it comes to violence against indigenous women. Ireland, in particular, raised the issue of listening to the families and communities that are calling for a national inquiry. This has reached the point where we've got Human Rights Watch reports; CIDA has raised this issue, and now we have the UN Periodic Review. It's like this room here is in another world. The global community has joined so many people in our own country asking what is going on in Canada.

How do you reconcile this? We've heard about the silos and the need to work better together. We've heard all of these things. How do you reconcile that disconnect, or can you reconcile the disconnect? It sounds like they're talking about a different country, compared to the presentations we're hearing tonight.

Ms. Murphy, maybe we can start with you.

[Sheilagh Murphy]

I'm not sure that we can reconcile.

We do have departments with programs that serve.... Our department is focused on reserve. But aboriginal women are across this country. There's a complexity of services and municipal, provincial, and federal jurisdictions that deal with this population in terms of providing safety and security for women and children.

I don't know how to correct the disconnect. We make the best efforts we can with the programs we have. We reach out to partners where we can. We try to work with communities. Certainly there are capacity issues in communities. There's a complexity of issues in families as well. Trying to make it all work is a real challenge, for sure.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

I know AANDC raised the issue around the provinces. Obviously you'll know that two weeks ago governments from each of the provinces, with the exception of British Columbia, came together in calling for a national inquiry. I don't think it's fair to pass the buck when we're talking about extreme levels of violence on reserves that are under federal jurisdiction, or the underfunding, whether of education or basic programming, that exists on reserve, which is, again, under federal jurisdiction.

It's important to recognize that provinces are asking what Canada is doing. Canada should be listening to the families and the communities that are demanding urgent action.

I'll move on to another point. We're hearing about these important programs in place. I just want to point to the case of a community I represent, Garden Hill First Nation, which is under third-party management. They are at the eleventh hour of their ability to fund policing services in their community, an isolated community on the east side of Lake Winnipeg, where there are extreme social challenges. Their third-party manager simply told them they don't have enough money to fund their policing program. As you might know, the RCMP is on Stevenson Island, an island that, if the lake isn't frozen, you can't get to very easily. The end result is that people don't see the RCMP as much as they should, but more importantly, there aren't first nations people in the community, understanding the community, helping with the policing services.

There are many other communities where third-party managers call these kinds of shots. We can all find excuses, but at the end of the day it means communities, including women, are without policing services because of severe underfunding.

Obviously we'd like to see that situation corrected with political leadership.

Mr. Tupper, I'm wondering if you could speak to the situation in terms of underfunding or the need for funding of first nations policing that still exists.

[Shawn Tupper]

Sure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Stella Ambler]

I'm afraid you have five seconds left to answer that question.

[Shawn Tupper]

No, I can't.

[The Chair, Conservative, Stella Ambler]

Give it your best shot.

[Shawn Tupper]

The thing I'd want to point out, in terms of how you perceive the first nations policing program, is that it is a program that's designed to augment the provincial investment in policing. Policing is a provincial responsibility. The law is very clear on that. The courts have ruled on this, that we have singular access to policing, that it's done by the provinces and the territories. And the first nations policing program is an augmentation to that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Stella Ambler]

Well done. Thank you.

For five minutes, Mr. Goguen.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, all the witnesses, for testifying this evening.

We'll now move to a skill-testing question.

Mr. Rickford started off the round. He shared some of his experiences as parliamentary secretary for aboriginal affairs. He asked some questions, but not everyone had occasion to answer. I'm wondering if any one of you wanted to share anything further on the topics he raised, if you remember them. There's no buzzer.

Do you want to refresh their memory, Greg, just to be fair?

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

We're talking about this “beyond the silo” kind of discussion...sort of more integrated at the departmental level. There seems to be all these different programs, notably Status of Women, who I don't believe are here today as a department. But that might be something worth pointing out. I guess I have done that. But anyway, I'd like to hear from the other departments. I think Statistics Canada is pulled into this piece as well.

Thanks, Bob, for that indulgence.

[Shawn Tupper]

I'll just give you a quick start. Within the Public Safety portfolio, I think we are starting to really pull together. One of the things I've been able to do, because I have the authority over the various silos within my department, is ensuring that as we look at the investments we make through first nations policing, they correspond to the kinds of investments we're making through the National Crime Prevention Centre.

I want to ensure that we're not going into a community twice, and not really knowing what the left hand and the right hand are doing in those communities. We are starting to pull together in a very clear way those kinds of partnerships, so that certainly works in our favour.

Our partnership with the RCMP certainly facilitates our ability, again, to look at some of the challenges that would be particular in the context of violence against aboriginal women and girls. We are developing our partnerships there, and again can bring together a portfolio perspective.

Even in the context of looking at Corrections and understanding how we better manage aboriginal offenders, I have policy responsibility for that within the department, and I have a very close partnership with the Correctional Service and the parole board. So we are able, in that context, to look at a range of issues that span the criminal justice system and start tying them together. We are doing a better job of that, and we are making our investments so that we're trying to stretch those dollars and get a bigger bang for the buck.