Status of Women Committee on Sept. 21st, 2006

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Let me make a suggestion. We've already started on the economic security issue--it is something we did start on in the spring--so if we organize our meetings well, we should be able to get through a pretty significant report.

There is a report on trafficking about to be released, I think in the next week or two, by an analyst at the library. So we will have a report on the human trafficking issue coming forward.

There are several suggestions here. We have a proposal for a subcommittee. If we were to continue on with our economic security issue, then as soon as we have this publication on prostitution, we might want to have one meeting where the researchers come in; we could define the parameters for a full-fledged study come February.

So there is that option and the option of the subcommittee, or the option of either one. We could continue the work on the economics, have one meeting to define the parameters for the human trafficking issue, which we would commence in February, or we could put the subcommittee together and start that now.

Unless there's something else to be added to the debate, I think we probably should have a vote on that issue.

I have several other speakers on the list--Ms. Mourani, Ms. Mathyssen, and Ms. Smith again.

Ms. Stronach, you have a question.

[Belinda Stronach, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Is it possible to construct a subcommittee now? We go with the top priority, initially, of economic security; we create a parallel subcommittee for trafficking; and then, in January or February, we roll that out to become the next focus.

That way, we won't have lost all that time on the trafficking. We can combine it, and then move it up to the main committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

So the subcommittee would start working, and then, come February, fold it into the full committee. That's your suggestion?

[Belinda Stronach, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Are you making that into a motion?

[Belinda Stronach, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

I can make that into a motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Did you need clarification on that, Ms. Smith?

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I believe there are things being shoved through here today. We need to slow down a minute.

There is a subcommittee on prostitution out of justice, and they're dealing with human trafficking as well, I understand.

Is the question just for clarification, Madam Chair? Are you asking what we are going to start first, the economics or the human trafficking? Is that what you're asking of the committee?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I believe that's what I'm hearing, that some members want to do the human trafficking, not the economics.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

So we're going to have a vote on that now?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I suggest that if we can't resolve it....

Yes, Ms. Neville.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I'm struck by Ms. Smith's comment just now that the subcommittee on prostitution is also dealing with human trafficking.

First of all, if it is dealing with human trafficking, why are we going back and reinventing the wheel? Secondly, so that we don't start from ground zero again, why aren't we waiting for that report to come out and using that, coupled with the report that's coming from the Library of Parliament on human trafficking, as a foundation to do further work?

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Can I just clarify that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Just for clarification.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Yes.

There is a subcommittee on prostitution.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I'm aware of that.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I will double-check about the human trafficking, because it all goes together. I feel that we're dragging our feet on this right now, that as soon as we talk about human trafficking, there's some reason why we can't study it. As women, we need to be front and centre.

For the subcommittee on justice, I will double-check, but I know it's on solicitation and prostitution. I would assume—and I'm assuming only—that human trafficking is a part of it, because it all goes together.

But I think what we should be doing here is working on the human trafficking as a committee, and for the reasons I cited.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Mourani, Ms. Mathyssen, and then we have to vote on whether or not we have a study on human trafficking or the economic security of women first. We also have the motion by Ms. Mathyssen for a subcommittee on human trafficking.

Ms. Mourani.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Personally, I feel it's critically important for the committee to focus on trafficking in persons. I don't have a problem -- and I've repeatedly said so since the start of the last session -- with having a subcommittee look into solicitation. However, as members of the Standing Committee on the Status of Women, we also have a duty to take a stand on this issue. We don't know yet whether or not we endorse the Justice Committee report, but we need to do some work of our own in this area. Not only will this help us to broaden our understanding of the problem, it will help us avoid all of the cliches.

To begin with, may I point out that if all Canadian women living in poverty worked as prostitutes, then there would be a large number of prostitutes in this country, because many women in Canada and around the world are poor. Prostitution is a highly complex issue. Numerous factors come into play and we must guard against drawing any speedy conclusions. First, we need to have a firm grasp of the issue. I may know some things, but I don't know everything. I want to understand this issue so that I can speak out knowledgeably on the subject if ever the House of Commons votes on legalizing prostitution. That's very important.

What does the subcommittee hope to accomplish? We are still in the dark. We're being told to wait until it releases its report. We'll have something to review, no doubt hastily, whereas all we're really asking is to let the committee consider the issue and adopt its very own position so that down the road, we can compare reports and recommend concrete initiatives, rather than engage is still more debates.

A great deal of responsibility rests on Canada's shoulders with regard to trafficking in persons. In developing countries, people live in abject poverty and must send their children out on to the streets. The international community has an obligation to defend these people by enacting laws prohibiting trafficking here in Canada and elsewhere in the world.

Take, for example, sex tourism. What are we doing about this problem? We have a responsibility to take action to rein in sex tourism. What about immigration laws? What steps are we taking when it comes to organized gangs to counter trafficking in children? Don't think that this is only going on in Bangkok, Thailand. Trafficking in children is also happening in Canada, albeit more indirectly. When minors are sent off to various regions of the country with forged papers to dance and work as prostitutes, Canada has a responsibility to act. We're not taking about sex shows, but about a humanitarian problem. The economic security of women is very important. I don't deny that.

We have focused on a number of topics, for example, pay equity and social housing, and we must continue to do so. During the last session we agreed that we would look into trafficking in persons and various other subjects and we did not get around to the task. We claimed to have run out of time, and that's perfectly understandable. We are now starting a new session and we have a lot on our plate. I think we need to vote on which topics we want to examine.

Before we vote on the creation of a subcommittee, I want to be clear on the role that subcommittee will play. For example, will it be tabling its report in December or in January? Will everyone get an opportunity to be heard, if he or she so wishes? When will the subcommittee meet? We can't overlook the reality that we all have very busy schedules.

In short, I have no objections to striking a subcommittee, but we need to be realistic. It must report back in December 2006. I don't have a problem with this, provided these conditions are met. However, I'll need to see some proof.

Thank you.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Madam Chair, I'd like to speak on a point of clarification, if I may. I'll be very quick.

I've had two of our colleagues now mention what I said with respect to the word sexy. I apologize for that. I was simply being facetious; I was not actually trying to say that it's a high-profile issue. That was not my intention at all.

However, what I was trying to say is, I've seen poor women in Africa—young girls, 13, 14, or 15 years old—who have no choice but to give themselves up to prostitution because they're AIDS orphans and are looking after three or four other siblings or themselves, or they've been thrown out because they're now living with an aunt who already has five or six children, and she is ill, and therefore they don't get fed.

It's economics. I'm trying to say we cannot address any of these young women's problems if we don't deal with their economic security, or financial or whatever, to keep body and soul together so they don't have to go in that direction. I've seen them; I've talked to them. It hurts badly to hear such comments, because that's not at all what I meant.

I was hoping we would actually deal with some of the core issues also on the foreign situation—not just Canadian. We could talk about foreign aid and how women and girls are affected.

But I guess we've lost that fight today, and I have to tell you that I feel very sad, because I see ahead of me another 35 years of women's poverty, and it won't address the issue of trafficking, I'm afraid.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Mathyssen is our last speaker. Then we'll have to have a vote and decide. We are—what is it—almost three-quarters through our meeting and we need to make a decision.

Ms. Mathyssen is our final speaker on this.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to begin by thanking Ms. Minna for drawing attention to my new provincial colleague and the fact that she is a woman of courage who was able to change her life and emerge from the life of a street child into a United Church minister's role and finally a legislator's.

I think if anything her experience affirms the work we do on this committee and the importance of Status of Women Canada: that we can speak on behalf of Canadian women and ensure they have the opportunities to have secure and productive lives. So thank you for that.

I wanted to draw attention to my motion and speak to it briefly. My rationale is this. I understand absolutely how very important both issues are, and I saw this as a way to deal with both in an expeditious way. Again I come back to my original argument: if we were going to look at trafficking in human beings, it would take an inordinate amount of time.

We know from the experience of the previous committee that it undertook a very extensive review of the situation. They had a great deal of work on their plate, a lot of travelling, and they had to bring in witness protection. It was just very complex, and I fear that kind of complexity precludes our doing a good job if we try to do both in the main committee.

My objective was to find a compromise, but I want to reiterate that I believe absolutely that looking at economic barriers and impacts is essential. It's a starting point that I think this committee must pursue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

The best thing for us at this point is to decide. Trying to do both of them between now and December will not do justice to either one of them; hence the reason we need to choose which one we feel is a priority for the committee and do it as such.

You have before you option number one, which is economic security of women, or option two, the trafficking in persons , as what will be the main focus of the work of this committee from now until December.

Ms. Minna, have you asked for a recorded vote on this?

Yes, she did, so I will turn it....

The decision is whether we do economic security or do human trafficking as our main focus of study between now and Christmas. It's one or the other.

Are there any other suggestions before we go to a vote on this?

[Belinda Stronach, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Yes. May I make a suggestion? Can we call it economic security and women's equality?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Yes, fine.