Status of Women Committee on Oct. 24th, 2006

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Okay. We need to address that.

[Mirjana Pobric]

We need that to proceed with our research on this issue and many others, and also integration of immigrant women into the Canadian labour force commensurate to their skills.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Mourani.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you for joining us today. I have two questions, one for Ms. Strickland and one for Mr. Saha.

Ms. Strickland, you've given us a very interesting overview of the situation. You've established a link between prostitution and human trafficking. As noted by another witness, sexual exploitation is the reason for 92% of human trafficking around the world. Another interesting point is that you spoke about charging customers with a crime. You're the first to do so and you mentioned the Swedish model.

Admittedly, the black market is as much a problem in countries that have legalized prostitution as it is in countries that consider it a criminal offence. Consider the Swedish model. The black market is still a problem, regardless of the codes used. I know what I'm talking about, given my background as a criminologist.

Could you clarify your comments about visas? I'm not sure I understood what you said about this. Are you talking about visas issued to victims, and not visas issued to persons in order to come to this country and work in the sex industry, which would make ours a country in which prostitution is viewed as legal? Were you in fact talking about helping victims temporarily by issuing them a special visa? Is that in fact what you meant?

[Capt Danielle Strickland]

Yes, that's exactly right.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

So then, you weren't talking about creating a state that welcomes persons of all kind wishing to indulge in sexual exploitation. Is that correct?

[Capt Danielle Strickland]

That's right. One of my recommendations is that it would be a criminal thing to use a prostitute, that would be inconsistent with the law.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Saha, I admit that I didn't quite understand your comments, and I apologize for that.

First of all, it's important to point out that not all Muslims and Shia agree to arranged marriages.

Moreover, I don't quite understand the connection you're making between human trafficking and arranged marriages. I imagine that there are cases of immigration fraud and theft as far as dowries are concerned, but how is this connected with human trafficking? You speak of fraudulent arranged marriages. Are you implying that so-called husbands buy young girls in Asia and once they arrive here, sell them off to bikers, street gangs or the mafia?

[Dr. Shandip Saha]

In terms of the first question, you're absolutely right. I did not want to leave the impression that all members of the Muslim community engage in arranged marriages. I singled out the Shia because that is what came to mind at the moment from my own research in terms of temporary marriages.

Again, I don't want to make a blanket statement about that, and I'm glad that you corrected me. Thank you very much.

When it comes to the second issue, I think in terms of the way we have broadly defined this, people are being promised or lured to Canada, in a sense, by the promise of a better life. They come here with high expectations, but when these women get here, they find they're completely dependent on their husbands, who start to physically abuse them, and then they're thrown out on the streets for whatever reason. They don't have any recourse, but these gentlemen, being Canadian citizens or landed immigrants, are protected, especially if they also have $30,000 as a dowry in their pockets.

I'm not an expert, by any means, on the way that arranged marriages themselves work. I know that sometimes there are agencies that will act as go-betweens. You can see any number of these things on the Internet. As to the potential legitimacy of these things and how much they operate in Canada, I am not sure about that.

The very notion that people are sometimes simply being deceived into coming here, then being let out for no other reason than to get their money--

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Smith.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you.

I would like to thank the presenters today for their very insightful presentations. This is indeed a very important topic that we are studying here on the status of women.

Often you hear that prostitution or trafficking is an industry and that it's something in Canada we should accept--it happens. I don't agree with that. I think it's something that needs to be stopped, and stopped very quickly. But I have very good reason to believe it's growing.

I want to hear each of you, but I would ask Ms. Strickland to start. My question to you is, have you heard this kind of thing in your travels and through your experience, and if you have, could you please make comment on it?

[Capt Danielle Strickland]

Sure, I hear it all the time. I live in Vancouver's downtown east side. It's a big voice there, and in the press there is a lot of advocacy toward legalization of prostitution. I'm baffled by it personally. I live there. I work there. I meet women all the time who live in horrific situations.

I think there's a lot of money to be gained by legalizing that, and I think there are people who have some motivation besides the dignity and rights of women in Canada, and those motivations are monetary, I believe. I don't see any other potential reason, and I think all you have to do is meet someone who has been sexually exploited to realize that it is not a reasonable line of work.

I'm baffled by it personally, in terms of close proximity and watching what that looks like, not only on the streets in downtown east Vancouver but also in brothels. I've visited a couple of brothels, simply to pray with and visit women trapped in that sort of situation, and even inside these so-called reasonable places, it's horrific. I don't get it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Grewal.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for your time and your presentations. My special thank you goes to Captain Strickland, because she's from my riding and she came here on such short notice. Thank you, Captain, for doing great work on behalf of all us and for making this place a better place for all of us.

My question is, what do you think this committee can do to improve Canada's efforts to fight human trafficking?

[Capt Danielle Strickland]

Release federal funding for provision for victims; create a visa, a federal legal way for victims to get the right provision in Canada for a long enough time; recognize prostitution as a form of sexual slavery, which would include stopping language about it being a trade--that's very important--and criminalize prostitute users and decriminalize prostitutes. Those are things you can do right away that would really begin to aggressively attack this issue in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have a minute and a half.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you. This question is direction to Dr. Saha.

What do you think is the fastest way any government can address this issue of the arranged marriages? What concerns me is that you say there is no registration for these marriages, so someone can supposedly think they are married and, when they get to Canada, find out there is no proof there. Yet if something happens to the woman involved....

What do you think should be done so this can be quickly addressed without further victims being a part of this?

Either Mirjana or Dr. Saha, whoever would like to address this issue, I'd be very pleased to hear it.

[Mirjana Pobric]

I'm just trying to find my papers on long-term, mid-term, and short-term recommendations.

In the past I've worked with abused immigrant women, and most of them were sponsored brides who came to this country under the sponsorship program to get married. They live in a form of segregation outside their ethnocultural community--a small community--in total dependence on their husband. They have nobody else. They don't know how to reach out for help.

Very often, we've said let the sponsor pay. There is a problem, because immigration and sponsorship programs are a federal jurisdiction while any kind of assistance or help is provincial. Sometimes there is a conflict or gap. That's why we call this a form of human trafficking in the broader definition. Women are left--

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I'm sorry that I have to interrupt. We want to get one more opportunity for questions. We have the minister coming at noon today, so our time is tight.

Ms. Charlton.

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'll limit myself to one question for each of you, if that's okay.

I'd like to suggest we're breaking new ground here by recognizing that human trafficking is an important issue, but we're not the first parliamentarians who have thought about this issue. We haven't made very much headway. We have a UN protocol. We have sections in the Criminal Code that address this issue. Yet, as you suggest, Ms. Strickland, there's paralysis here.

I wonder if we can explore that a little bit longer, because it seems to me that some of the issues you were talking about, particularly on the victims' side, really speak to a disconnect between what the federal government is and should be doing, what provincial governments need to be doing, and what municipal governments need to be doing. What I worry about is that each time we address this issue we allow different levels of government to point fingers.

So when we say yes, we need changes to the way the temporary residence permit is thought about, and we need a different way of conceptualizing what we do for training, for education, for housing, right down to what we do with shelters at the municipal level, how do we get around the systemic paralysis so that we're all doing our bit to assist victims in a more effective way?

[Capt Danielle Strickland]

I think someone needs to take the lead, and we need to create a model. I think where the breakdown happens is that we haven't really been here before in this specialized way. So although it's an issue we've talked about, we haven't gotten to a grassroots level of actual provision. So there is no safe house for women who have been sexually trafficked, who have survived that. Those infrastructures don't exist. They're all conceptual things, without any actual tangible stuff, and I think someone needs to just lead the way. I suggest that the federal government lead the way in creating a model, and then perhaps once the model has been created, that they begin to hand it over to provincial jurisdictions.

That's one suggestion. It might be naive, I don't know, but I'll throw it out there.

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thanks. I'd like to ask you a lot more, but I recognize the time limits, so I'll be quick.

Dr. Saha, when we talked about fraudulently arranged marriages, and correct me if I'm wrong, first you said that they were on the increase in Canada. And second, I was under the impression that you very much link them to the newcomer experience in Canada. You talked about arranged marriages being both a means of immigration and a vehicle for financial gain.

So if we're talking about the newcomer experience and an increase in the incidence of arranged marriages, does that not suggest that somehow we, as a country, when we allow immigrants to come in, are actually also at fault by fraudulently advertising what the immigrant experience will be like here? We're leaving immigrants with not enough money to actually make Canada their new home. What do we need to do in terms of our immigration policies for there to be better means of family reunification, for example? Are those some of the roads you're leading us to, or was I incorrect in understanding that you were linking this very much to the newcomer experience?

[Mirjana Pobric]

Yes, that's what we would ask in order to protect these women. If you want to immigrate to Canada, there are other ways, not through fraudulent marriages, to reach this country. Many immigrants are doing it in regular ways.

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Are you suggesting that the problem would go away, though, if we actually had adequate reform of our immigration system and if we made sure newcomers had the kind of financial support they need to start their lives over?

[Dr. Shandip Saha]

That's right.

Just to quickly answer the question that was asked before, the quickest way to deal with this issue, I think, based on our recommendations in our brief, would be legal empowerment for these women so they feel they have some legal way, through an extradition process and visas, to pursue these individuals who are defrauding them of their money and then just leaving them out in the cold.