Status of Women Committee on Oct. 31st, 2006

[Sgt Matt Kelly]

That is a little bit newer investigative technique for us. We do have also the same two investigators who are involved in Internet luring files, and we've participated in files where, by Internet, someone from the United States has communicated with someone, a young girl in Canada, and then arranged to have a meeting, and we were set up waiting for that meeting to make the arrest or to participate with authorities in the United States to apprehend because we are so close to the border.

So we do have people who are actively now online getting involved in luring. We arrested someone about a month ago. The undercover operator was pretending to be a 13-year-old girl, and this individual wanted to have a meeting for sex and exposed himself on the Internet through his webcam to our operative. So we're involved in those investigations, but they're also time-consuming. And would they use that as a means to recruit a girl, to put her into the sex trade? Absolutely, they would. They'll use any way. They'll use the shopping mall, the transit system. Anywhere where kids are is where a pimp will go to recruit.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Then I would ask you, and perhaps not even today, to give some thought to what recommendations this committee might make as it relates to the use of the Internet for the purposes of luring, because there are certainly recommendations coming forward for the use of the Internet as it relates to child pornography.

[Sgt Matt Kelly]

Stronger laws. And I'll pass it over to my friends from Toronto, because they made a comment about the law.

In the United States, for this individual who crossed the border in possession of child pornography, he is going to get upwards of between 10 and 15 years in prison in Washington state. If it happened out of 222 Main Street, he would not be getting time like that. That's a serious deterrent when you're putting someone in jail for that length of time for a very serious crime. Some poor child overseas was sexually assaulted, beaten, raped, at an age as young as newborn, to make this material. We've got to take it a little bit more seriously and put these people away for a long time.

As investigators, we've seen some very troubling things from the Internet, things that I can't forget. We get counselling for it. It's grotesque, and people belittle it or try to lower it down to what they describe as “kiddie porn”. It's not kiddie porn. There's nothing cute about it. It's child pornography, and a victim overseas has been ruined for life to make that.

So we've got to have stronger laws.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Scanlan, quickly, could you add a comment to that.

[Det Sgt Kim Scanlan]

You wanted to know about using the Internet, which is a great tool, but at the same time people choose to use it, for good or bad.

We don't see as much advertisement as far as coming for bawdy houses, for escort services, is concerned, but I know it's there. Mostly in Toronto we're seeing a lot in our local newspapers. There are certain magazines that have pages and pages and pages, and they openly advertise young Asian girls, or whatever it is that there would be interested consumers for.

As far as supporting those who choose to abuse children in sexual assault is concerned--and we're seeing it live on video--certainly there has to be a lot more that can be done. We're working with a lot of the Internet service providers to make some changes, but it's not happening fast enough.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Stanton.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Just continuing along the same theme with respect to the laws—and I think Sergeant Kelly and Detective Sergeant Scanlan have both mentioned this in their opening comments, so I would invite their comments on this theme—could you tell us a little bit about where the current inadequacies are and give some examples perhaps of how the current laws don't put enough deterrence in place? You talked about our needing more deterrents—“harsher, stronger”; those were the words I heard. Could you reflect on where those inadequacies are and what you would like to see, using some examples, if you could?

[Det Sgt Kim Scanlan]

Certainly from my perspective I find that conditional sentencing, for anyone who would be involved in the abuse or sexual assault or exploitation of children, is not tolerable.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

By conditional sentencing, do you mean house arrest?

[Det Sgt Kim Scanlan]

Yes. That's where I say there should be harsher penalties, stronger penalties, penitentiary time, more consistent with what they're getting in the United States.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

On that point, are you telling me right now that house arrest and conditional sentences are provided for the perpetrators of these crimes?

[Det Sgt Kim Scanlan]

They've changed the law recently, and there is some minimum sentencing; however, we're still dealing with cases where they are getting conditional sentences.

[Sgt Matt Kelly]

As far as trafficking is concerned, my friend Mr. Grant from CIC commented about life imprisonment and a $1 million fine for human trafficking convictions. Our case is before the courts now, our provincial courts in British Columbia at 222 Main Street, and we'll see what the sentence is from that building, but traditionally that is a very liberal house of justice.

We're hopeful that we'll get a severe sentence for this individual, especially after all this work and after the trauma these victims have gone through, but we'll just have to wait and see.

As far as domestic human trafficking is concerned, we haven't had a case before the courts yet. As I said, we're trying to get a file through now, but my investigator walked out of the crown counsel's office last week, and said to her, “You just don't get it; it's like talking to a rock”. That's a quotation of what he said to her. He was very upset. Then he came back to my office. I had to debrief him, calm him down, and send him home, especially after all the work he has put into the file.

I don't know whether the sentences will be as severe as we want. I'm hoping so. I hope everyone recognizes the problem and I hope the judiciary deals with it appropriately, because if they don't, they'll set a low precedent, and we don't need that in this country. We need a high bar.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Can you comment on how these harsher sentences in fact do become a deterrent?

[Sgt Matt Kelly]

If Mr. Ng, after all the publicity we've had around this file, is sentenced to some minimal amount of time or some small fine that he can recoup in his continuing operation in a month or a year, or whatever, he'll just go back into business again.

His business has never shut down, if you can believe it. After our search warrants, etc., and after our charging him, he was released, but he signed the business over to someone else, and that person is operating it. It is business as usual. Media cameras have gone in, and now there are bunk beds set up for the girls to sleep in, because right now, this country is not seen.... There is no serious threat in Canada, no serious deterrent in Canada. We are lambs for the slaughter, as far as organized crime is concerned, in this area.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Essentially, you're saying that these kind of criminal perpetrators need to be off the streets; they need to be in penitentiaries.

[Sgt Matt Kelly]

An appropriate sentence for Mr. Ng would be life imprisonment, and that all property he owns in Canada be turned over to the government.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Well put.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Madam Chair, my questions will deal mostly with immigration.

I sit on the Citizenship and Immigration committee which is currently examining the issue of undocumented refugees. We are told that the number of refugee claimants has been dropping steadily since 2001 when the government doubled the amounts allocated for interdiction officers in foreign missions.

Would you tell us how these officers working abroad are trained? How do they determine if a case involves human trafficking?

Following the decline in refugee claims, in 2004, Canada and the United States signed an agreement on safe third countries. A number of witnesses appearing before the Citizenship and Immigration committee, including NGO representatives, expressed concern about this agreement. They were concerned about the lack of training and knowledge, and the limited information available from the local agency. Of course, statistics show that the safe third country agreement has helped to dramatically reduce the number of refugee claims.

Does this agreement not make those seeking protection from human smugglers and similar traffickers much more vulnerable?

[Kimber Johnston]

With respect to the issue of training our officers abroad on the elements of human trafficking, our migration integrity officers, whom I mentioned in my opening remarks and who are stationed at 39 countries abroad, do get specialized training in human trafficking issues. They are also very much trained in the detection of fraudulent documents and the manufacturing of fraudulent documents, as well as the intelligence behind who might be seeking this documentation to come to Canada.

I need to hasten to add at this point what I mentioned as well in my opening remarks--that the intelligence is currently fairly weak, and therefore one of the challenges we face abroad is knowing exactly what kind of migration patterns for this type of activity exist out there. That is a challenge for us.

With respect to the safe third country agreement and the refugee claims, do you want to answer that, Brian?

[Dr. Brian Grant]

Following the introduction of IRPA--the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act--in 2002, all visa officers serving abroad received training in detecting trafficking, so that's part of the standard training of everyone who is posted overseas to issue visas, and they're constantly vigilant for that.

I'm not aware of any information that would link the safe third agreement to an increase in trafficking, if I understood your question. I'm not aware of information to that effect.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

With the heightened security measures at the land borders, do you not think that there will be an increase in trafficking of people coming from, for example, Latin American countries who want to settle here or who are fleeing difficult conditions in their country of origin? Are these people not more likely to fall prey to human traffickers?

[Dr. Brian Grant]

Your question implies that these people are in the United States. If they feel that they are in danger in the United States, they can seek help from the American government.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

We know full well that, before the safe third party agreement...

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Deschamps, your time is up.

Can you be more specific on your answer, Mr. Grant?