Status of Women Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2006

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you for your testimony. I would like to ask Ms. Wolski a question.

You spoke about trafficking in Aboriginal women, something that is on the rise. Perhaps you could give me some clarification about a matter I have been wondering about for a long time.

Do you think that there is an organized Aboriginal criminal group, whether for drug trafficking, prostitution or trafficking in young people, that is holding a community hostage? If so, does this type of organized crime, as with other forms of crime, moreover, sometimes manage to foil police initiatives?

Last year, well before the Gabriel affair, the Government of Quebec organized an operation to take out a number of organized criminal groups. However, it fell flat.

Do you think that this trafficking in women is linked to organized Aboriginal crime, rooted in a community?

[Erin Wolski]

Actually, there's no indication that this is occurring. There is a lot of this activity in British Columbia, and we know there are organizations there that are targeting children in first nations communities, 13 and 14 years old. But there are huge research gaps. So unfortunately, I'm not able to answer that question very intelligently. We can make certain assumptions of what might be happening in our communities, but until we actually focus specifically on the issue, it's anyone's guess.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

That's more difficult.

Part of my question was to find out if in your opinion, there was Aboriginal organized crime.

[Erin Wolski]

I don't think I can even answer that question.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Okay.

I have a question for Ms. Crawford.

You said that standards for modelling agencies needed to be regulated. Do you think that the ban on hiring minors should be imposed? Do you have some specific standards to suggest?

[Liz Crawford]

That's a bit of a loaded question. In the industry worldwide, internationally, the average age is 14 to 17 years old. So for us to set a standard that says we can't recruit or scout minors would decimate our industry internationally. I don't know whether that's a reality for us, if we want to remain a competitor internationally. I think all the groups that work with children should be subject to the same standards, whether it be background checks, registrations, or other things.

I'm not a lawyer. I don't know much about registering a business. But I think most companies that deal with children have to have some things checked out. There are background checks. There are all kinds of things applied to the individuals that work with children. For me, that's very important.

Would I like the age of models to be higher than 14? Absolutely. Is that reflective of what's going on in our industry in the world? No. So it's a tough question.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Yes, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have two minutes.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I understand that hiring models between the ages of 14 to 17 is an international standard, and that if Canada were to decide to hire models of 18 years and over, it would make Canada less competitive.

Discussion is needed, and all countries should ratify a protocol to establish a minimum age of 18 for models. If I understood you correctly, you would be in agreement about not using minors.

[Liz Crawford]

I would agree, and I would like to do some research and get back to you.

I know that in Italy a few years ago you needed to be 16 before you could work in Milan. I don't know if that is still presently the case. There was a period of time when that was an issue because of some of the things that were happening in Milan. Some of the girls were 13, 14, and 15 years old, so they did put an age limit in. That is the only country that I'm aware of that has taken that initiative, but that was a direct reaction to some of the things that were happening there.

I would absolutely love to see that age raised, because I don't think that at 15 and 16 you really are equipped to deal with the things that come in travelling and living in foreign countries on your own, never mind modelling.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I would like to ask a final question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I'm sorry, but your time is up.

Ms. Smith.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to thank all the presenters today for their very insightful presentations and the effort they put into coming here today.

My first question would be directed to you, Ms. Crawford. Right now in the House of Commons we have a bill that raises the age of consent in Canada. Sex can occur between a 14-year-old and an adult legally, under the law. We tried before to raise the age of consent. We want to do it again.

Could you comment in terms of whether having a higher age of consent for sexual activity would help in Canada? When you say there are older men and younger girls, minors, involved, would that be helpful? That's my first question.

My second question would be directed to Irena Soltys. Could she comment on the men's part here? The men I know would never buy sex. I would be really surprised. What do we need to do to get more men involved in Canada to help this initiative out? Men and women have daughters, so it's an issue for all of us; it's not just a women's issue.

Having said that, maybe you two could take turns, and then I have two other questions for our other guests.

[Liz Crawford]

Yes, I think raising the age of consent would definitely be helpful. It would be helpful because there could be no confusion when an agent or scout or whoever is in a position of power over a young girl and things get ugly. I definitely think there is no 14-year-old who really wants to find herself in that situation. I have yet to meet one.

So, yes, raising the age of consent would be a start. It would eliminate even questioning whether that 14-year-old on that set that day was really willing and wanting to be there.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you.

[Irena Soltys]

In answer to how men can be involved in the issue, it's an uncomfortable issue for men, because it's predominantly men who create the demand. It's therefore an ethical issue that men have to look at.

Any amount of education that could be directed that way would be helpful. A lot of it has to do with biases towards women, and specifically biases towards trafficked women. I don't want to single out the police force, but I believe it's mostly composed of men. They need to look at trafficked women not as hookers or streetwalkers; they need to acknowledge the fact that these women have been enslaved and shouldn't be confused with criminals. This can only happen through education anywhere that we can accomplish it.

I challenge many of you to go up to the average police officer, if he's writing you a parking or a speeding ticket, and ask him what he knows about trafficking. My experience has been that it's very little.

Again, it's an ethical and religious issue, and I do agree with Ms. Matte's mention of the Swedish model, which does criminalize the user. Of course, we have john school as part of Streetlight Support Services. We're not sure how effective that is, but at least it places some onus on the user for rehabilitating himself.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I have three minutes left, so maybe I can cover you all, with a little luck.

Ms. Wolski, I would like to ask you a question, because I was very interested in something you said. My son is an RCMP officer who is married to an Ojibwa girl, so we're very aware of the culture and everything. It's an amazing aspect.

In terms of education, could you comment in terms of the culture that needs to be understood by, I would say, police and government officials, in terms of how we can stop the human trafficking? I guess it's more on the side of the victim, so that they understand they can have confidence in the person who's talking to them, because on many occasions young aboriginal girls do not fully trust people who do not understand their culture.

Could you comment on that?

[Erin Wolski]

I think it goes back to the issues with colonialism and the legislated discrimination that's happened in Canada for the past 200 years with respect to residential schools and outlawing traditional ceremonies and trying to quash the languages.

It's so encompassing. There's the sixties scoop. There's legislation that exists today—the Human Rights Act, for example, Bill C-31, the Indian Act. The discrimination is legislated. What happens as a result of that is a sense of helplessness. The net effect of what's happened over generations sometimes is a lack of ability to cope.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

So would you say that aspect has to be addressed?

[Erin Wolski]

The whole historical aspect needs to be understood. People are in situations often not of their own choice.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you.

Do I have one more minute?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

The time is about up, Ms. Smith. Thank you.

Ms. Minna has a point of order.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Madam Chair, I have a point of order for just a quick minute. I'll be very quick, I promise. I just have to correct.

It's not that raising the age of consent is not important, but it is not accurate to say that it's legal for 14-year-olds to have sex with adults. It's absolutely not legal. With a trainer or a camp leader, it's just not. Read the legislation, please, Bill C-2, that came here recently.

I'm sorry, but I really cannot allow for misinformation to stand on the record. It is not legal; read the bill and you'll see exactly what it says.

I just wanted to make that clear, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Okay. Thank you for your point of order.

Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have so many questions. I want to begin with Diane Matte.

You said at the beginning of your presentation that neo-liberal globalization and increased militarism had increased the victimization of women and increased trafficking. I wonder if you could expand on that and explain precisely what you meant by it.