Status of Women Committee on Nov. 7th, 2006

[Chantal Tie]

That's one of the pieces of research that is very well documented, yes.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

There's another form of trafficking that I've never really understood up until now, and that's the trafficking in Aboriginal women.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Go quickly, please.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

All right.

As part of the committee's study, I've asked witnesses if trafficking in Aboriginal women was tied solely to organized crime in the Aboriginal community or whether it was also linked to other forms of organized crime. Have any statistics been compiled on this subject?

[Chantal Tie]

I am not sure. I don't know the answer to that. I think you'd probably have to ask a group like NWAC.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I'm talking about data compiled by the RCMP.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Stanton.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you for your presentation today. It is very insightful, albeit I realize that you had to get through it very quickly.

There are a couple of things I want to ask you about. The first is on the source of this phenomenon--human trafficking. You mentioned, certainly, the critical issues around economic disadvantage, the vulnerability of women. We've discussed in this committee trying to keep it within the Canadian example, realizing that it is impossible in Canada to try to effect some kind of change in terms of economic disadvantage in other parts of the world.

However, we have not seen any evidence or any testimony that would suggest.... We recognize that there will always likely be, as long as we have society, people who will want to seek economic advantage. They'll want to be mobile so they can take advantage of economic and/or job opportunities in other parts of the world, and we'll deal with a level of vulnerability in our society.

Having said that, we have seen no evidence to suggest that while these people will, regrettably, more than the average, fall into becoming victims of this.... In fact, the source of this phenomenon is really the demand for it. In other words, we have had no real evidence to suggest that even if economic disadvantage was completely cured, as whimsical and as noble as that might be, it would take away the demand for prostitution or sexual slavery, which ultimately exists to feed a certain demand within society.

Could you comment on that?

[Chantal Tie]

I would like to say a few things.

What you want to do is eliminate the criminal and exploitive parts of it, the human rights violations parts of it. I think that's what I was getting at when I said that the increased focus on criminalization doesn't address that issue, which is the exploitive nature of it and all the associated criminal aspects that adhere to all these problems.

When you're talking about the problem, one of the difficulties we have is that there are very few legitimate routes of migration for women into this country. Many women don't qualify under the skilled worker point system, particularly if they come from countries where women are significantly disadvantaged. They are not going to have the higher education; they are not going to have the skills to qualify. They have only a very limited ability to migrate under the domestic worker program, which has its own problems with potential forced labour, isolation of the women, and the live-in requirement--which we've been advocating be removed for many years.

So you're right. You're saying that the demand will continue to be there. But there are things that can be done to reduce demand. One is to make it entirely socially unacceptable. One is to remove all the criminal activity that surrounds the demand. Partly, you do that by removing the criminal stigma from it.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I'm working on a timetable here, so I'll try to get to my next question. Thank you very much for that.

You talked about the criminalization of the victims as being one of the crucial issues here, and the concentration on law enforcement from that point of view. We've heard from several witnesses, particularly from the law enforcement community but also from community groups, who almost say the opposite.

The law enforcement people from Vancouver and Toronto clearly put an emphasis on ensuring that the victims of human trafficking are not treated as criminals. Instead they are protected by putting them in safe houses and getting them immigration status, even on a temporary basis. That's a whole other discussion we're having. But ultimately, the community and the law enforcement agencies that deal with these victims are purposeful in not treating them as criminals. That seems to contrast with your message today. Could you comment on that?

[Chantal Tie]

That's certainly not the message we've received from the settlement agencies in all of our national consultations. One of the difficulties we have is that some of these women may be picked up first by immigration officials, not law enforcement officials. I agree with you that where it's in the interests of the prosecution, they will be sheltered and protected. If they are too afraid or unwilling to testify and assist in the prosecution, they can be deported quite quickly, and that's a problem.

Historically, the response of Immigration was to detain and remove them as illegal immigrants participating in illegal activities here in Canada. The Immigration perspective was not that they were victims of human rights violations. These women are dealt with by the enforcement division, which is now the CBSA. They are not dealt with by the section of Immigration that deals with humanitarian and compassionate applications. So there are two different mindsets, two very different priorities. CBSA is concerned with removals, and that's what they do.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

You know then that CBSA is acting to remove. We've heard some testimony here that there is an effort to try to make sure that status is upheld and services are there to try to make sure there's a transition point at which the ultimate needs of the victims...because they are victims of these crimes; they're not criminalized at all. We want to get at the perpetrators too--I can see a valued point in our ability to be able to get at the perpetrators--even to the point where we've heard that our prosecutions won't put these victims on the stand. They don't even need to give testimony.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Could we get a quick response to a very complicated question?

[Chantal Tie]

I'm not denying that efforts are being made; I'm just saying they do not go far enough. Very important and appropriate players in all of this are the NGOs. They need to receive support because they are the groups the women will trust.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you so much for being here.

I have a number of questions. How much direct work does NAWL do each year with female victims of human trafficking? Do you have programs in this area? If so, could you describe them?

I'm also concerned that your funding is limited. You will receive funding up to September 2007, and I'm wondering how the work you do will be affected by the loss of that funding after that date.

[Chantal Tie]

My colleague actually works for NAWL. I'm a volunteer with NAWL and I work on immigration issues for NAWL as part of the immigration working group. I know that NAWL is always scrambling for resources. Even though we draw upon tremendous volunteer resources like me and many other women, both lawyers and non-lawyers, we're always struggling to keep going. So I'm sure it will have an impact, if that's what you're asking me.

We have not done any direct work with victims of trafficking. I've participated in all of the consultations that the Canadian Council for Refugees has organized and we're really monitoring the situation. Our mandate is not to provide services but to do law reform work. So we look at taking on-the-ground experiences and trying to transform them into legislative changes that will make a difference.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Perhaps then we could look at the legislative changes and the work you do with the court challenges program. Does this program help victims of human trafficking, and what does the loss of this program mean to finding justice for women in Canada?

[Chantal Tie]

I'm the immediate past chair of the court challenges program. I just finished my mandate. If you're interested in the court challenges program, I think it's a tremendous blow to the ability of women to participate in a judicial system where many of these issues would be resolved.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You still have time.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay, thank you.

You said that the victims of trafficking would be better served by the government focusing the majority of its resources on victim services, rather than on prosecution. How large or small a part of the government's trafficking prevention program should prosecution take, in order to really serve the victims' needs? What's the ratio there?

[Chantal Tie]

I really can't answer that. It's threefold. There need to be adequate resources for protection, prosecution, and prevention.

The Palermo declaration recognizes the three approaches, although it places significantly less emphasis in the two articles on prevention and protection than it does on prosecution. It really is about transnational crime, and that's the emphasis in Palermo.

I think this has been reflected in the efforts of the Canadian government, which has made some significant strides in recent years on the prosecution end. What we're saying is it's time to catch up with the prevention and protection mandates in the protocol, which we've signed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You still have a few minutes.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay.

This morning the House is debating—I guess it must be almost finished by now—a motion to act on the 2004 task force report on pay equity. There's some resistance. We would like to see a proactive pay equity law in place, and we have received support from the government only for the status quo, the complaints-based system.

Would a proactive pay equity act help to prevent trafficking of women, help women who are trafficked in terms of their ability to access the income, the economic security, which they need?

[Chantal Tie]

NAWL has always supported pay equity. That's one of the positions that NAWL has always taken. Pay equity is a very important part of ensuring women's equality.

When we are talking about trafficking, we're talking about women who are working illegally in the country in many cases, or on visas in an area that would probably not be protected by pay equity, in any event.