Status of Women Committee on Nov. 7th, 2006

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

We've heard some testimony that because of their lack of economic security, domestically women are being drawn in and abused in the same way that offshore women are being abused.

[Chantal Tie]

It's possible. I'd have to think about the link. In a broader sense, obviously pay equity is a very important piece for women's equality, and trafficking is based on women's equality. I suppose there's a connection, but I hadn't thought precisely about what it was until you asked the question.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you.

We are starting the five-minute round. Ms. Neville, and then Ms. Davidson.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you for what was a superb presentation. You gave me some remarkable insights in terms of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration and some of the barriers and flaws, the difficulties.

My first question is, do you have any other recommendations relating to Citizenship and Immigration that we as a committee should put forward? I'd be interested to know this.

How do you see the communications among Citizenship and Immigration, the other law enforcement organizations, and the NGOs? You talk about the need for protection in human rights. Is the communication adequate, and are they doing what they should?

That's my first line of questioning, and if you have time, I'd appreciate any further comments on Canada as a source country. You referenced aboriginal women. Do you have anything to add to that?

[Chantal Tie]

I'll just start with the last question about the aboriginal women. One of the issues that arose from our national consultations was the prevalence of aboriginal women being trafficked within Canada, and we need to actually look at that. It's not just foreign women coming in. I'm not sure there's any definitive research done in that area, which again I think is problematic. So one area that Status of Women would need to look at is doing some research into the problem of the forced enslavement, basically, of aboriginal women.

My understanding is that they are driven into it by poverty and conditions on the reserve, sometimes by conditions of abuse. They are then sold throughout Canada. Basically their handlers start them in Vancouver. They work for them there for awhile, then they're sold to someone in Winnipeg and then to someone in Toronto, and so on down the line as they get moved around the country. This is an extremely vulnerable population of women--extremely vulnerable--and these are Canadian women.

So the point we'd like to make today is that this is not just women who are being brought into the country. There's a significant movement, and it does appear to be connected to gangs and organized crime within Canada, and there are aboriginal gangs as well, as was pointed out. They have a role in the use of aboriginal women and girls as prostitutes.

In terms of the cooperation, there is the interdepartmental working group, which, as we understand it, has now been given much more permanent status. It has been working on many of these issues and has been able to have significant NGO input. So we fully support the work of that group and hope it continues to have both a permanent status and to have NGO input into it.

I think the point we make is that the NGOs have the front-line experience, they have the access to the clients, and they are best positioned to provide assistance. Their voice needs to be heard in those groups, and so far that appears to be happening. Things move slowly, though. We're never entirely happy with how things move.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

We've been advised that only one individual has taken advantage of the opportunity through Citizenship and Immigration. Based on what you know, is that because of the structural impediments in Citizenship and Immigration, as you understand them?

[Chantal Tie]

Yes. I think it raises, certainly in my mind, a number of flags. Unfortunately, the department is in possession of the answers to the questions and all I can do is pose the questions.

We need to ask clearly how widely known the availability of the visa is. We need to know whether women are specifically counselled when they are rounded up by the police. Have the police received adequate training on the availability? What strings are attached to the visa? How many women have applied and been refused the visa? We need to know what other supports are being provided with the visa to assist the women. I don't think the one visa that's been issued has yet expired--I think we're still within the three-month period since its issuance--so what we don't know is what the provisions for long-term protection are for those women.

So a three-month visa is fine. It's important--a period of reflection for the woman to make some decisions, to begin her recovery--but we need to know whether in fact it will or could lead to some type of long-term status. As I said, the current mechanisms within Immigration are inadequate to deal with the kinds of problems that are presented by trafficked women.

When you submit H and C applications in Ottawa now, they are taking three years to be processed. The resources are just simply not there. You have no protection. So your three-month visa runs out and you still don't have your H and C application processed. What happens? Are you removed? There's no stay available. The Federal Court will not issue stays in most cases, and you can't get to the Federal Court without legal access to counsel.

So there are significant problems. I would say the fact that only one visa has been issued is probably indicative of a problem, but the department needs to answer some specific questions related to the visas.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you, Ms. Tie.

Ms. Davidson, go ahead, please.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you very much, and thank you, Ms. Tie, for your presentation. I certainly enjoyed it.

I was very interested in hearing you say you felt it was a multi-dimensional problem, because I think we've heard that over and over again with the witnesses who have come before this committee. Certainly, I was very interested--and I know others were as well--to hear your comments on protection and assistance and not just on enforcement issues. Those are all things that I think we've been hearing about over and over again.

I know you commented on the cuts to the Status of Women group. I know you'll be pleased that those are administrative cuts and that this government wants to see those dollars go directly to the organizations that have a direct impact on helping women, not to the organizations whose sole purpose is to lobby government for more dollars. I think we're all on the same wavelength. We want to do what we can to help women, and that's where those dollars are going to go.

I have one question for you, and I know you've had a lot of experience in this and you've looked at a lot of different areas. Is there any one area where there are sound models of legislation or programs to combat human trafficking, either in Canada or somewhere that we could look at as a model? I'm not sure whether we've heard there are other jurisdictions that have anything specific in place that we could use to start our process of recommendation.

[Chantal Tie]

There are a number of jurisdictions that have moved, specifically in light of the signing of the Palermo Protocol, to protect victims. I know the United States has legislation; Italy has legislation; and the Council of Europe also has, and in fact I think I have a copy of their legislation here.

Some of those pieces of legislation are contingent upon cooperation and prosecutions. They're very directly tied; some of them are not. Sweden has legislation as well, but I'm not personally familiar with the Swedish legislation. Those are three jurisdictions you can look at.

I know the U.S. has successfully used their legislation to combat some of the trafficking and illegal migrant farm workers who've been sold into virtual slavery working on tomato farms in Florida and various other places. One of the features is that it does lead to permanent status in the United States and protection during the prosecution.

It has been a very effective enforcement tool, I should say, so these things don't have to be mutually exclusive. Providing for and looking after victims assists them to come forward and help you if that is their choice. My only concern is that protection and health not be dependent upon cooperation.

I say that because there's significant evidence that traffickers exert pressure and coercive pressure upon families in the source countries, which makes the trafficked people extremely vulnerable once they arrive here, and it makes prosecution virtually impossible for them unless it's at serious risk to their family back home. I think we need to recognize that and not place victims in a position in which they're being forced to betray their own family in order to get at their traffickers.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

I'll share my time with Mr. Tilson.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Go ahead, please, Mr. Tilson.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Thank you.

I was interested in your suggestion about emphasizing the prosecution of the person who is doing the trafficking, who is forcing women--and I suppose young men, for that matter--into prostitution.

I'm not too sure what that meant. Are you suggesting a new defence for women who have been forced into prostitution for the many different reasons you've talked about and that members of the committee have talked about? You're not suggesting that?

[Chantal Tie]

No, not at all. I'm saying they shouldn't be prosecuted. They shouldn't be charged. They shouldn't need a new kind of defence. You shouldn't charge them. They're victims.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

So they shouldn't be charged at all.

[Chantal Tie]

That's right. Don't prosecute.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

My question then would lead to the fact that might that lead to an abuse of where a woman or a young man has voluntarily gone into the sex trade?

[Chantal Tie]

Well, there....

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Your suggestion is commendable, but it needs to be looked at. My concern would be that there are young women and young men who voluntarily go into the sex trade.

[Chantal Tie]

Yes. This is a difficult issue, the issue of women's agency and their right to make choices, and you're quite correct that there are movements, but I think the defining feature here is the coercion and the violence that accompany trafficking. So since we're talking about trafficking, not involvement in the sex trade per se, trafficking in and of itself by definition involves violence and coercion. So the minute there's violence and coercion, we're not talking about voluntary involvement in the sex trade.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I just wanted to raise that issue as a concern, that it might lead to abuse.

Do I have time for one more quick question?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Two seconds, if you can throw something out there very quickly.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

My concern is about your comments about the armed forces. I think you mentioned the United Nations armed forces. Are you suggesting that the Canadian Armed Forces are getting involved in the sex trade where Canadian Forces have been? Are you making that suggestion?

[Chantal Tie]

No. What I said is that we need to carefully review our policies and protocols. We need to ensure that people are reported and that they have a mechanism to report. We need to ensure that we have adequate training. I'm making no allegations about what's going on currently. I'm just saying we have an obligation to ensure that if it is going on, it's detected and it's prosecuted, and that there's adequate education going on.