Status of Women Committee on Nov. 9th, 2006

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you for your very wise and insightful comments.

The frustration, as you say, is getting the experts there. I have worked quite a bit with the Manitoba ICE unit--the integrated child exploitation unit--over a period of about five years. What they were saying is that the guys on the ground, these joint forces units, develop their own techniques, and when they are very successful, those techniques obviously work. Would there perhaps be a way that these units could come in to train new police officers? The boots on the ground are the ones who really know what goes on. That is my first question.

Second, in terms of the victims, we are trying very hard, on our side, to put protection in for victims. That 120 days includes counselling and medical care, and that 120 days can be extended. We need to do more, and we know we need to do more, so we're looking to people like you.

It seems to me that what you've said is to change the laws, because consent means nothing. As soon as someone says they consented to this, they get off, no matter what video you have on what's been happening to the girls. So it seems to me that laws, education, and police resources are huge components to help combat this monster that is growing too fast across our nation. I'd like to have your comments on that.

[Dominic Monchamp]

Everything you are saying is very true. In terms of training, in fact, the expertise is scattered across Canada. There are very few of us and we are under enormous pressure.

I know that, in Ontario, at that time, there was a squad called the Child Exploitation Unit, which has changed and continues to grow. It now operates solely in the area of child pornography. The child prostitution unit was dismantled.

So that is what we are facing. We must continue to fight to justify ourselves and explain why these investigations are so demanding. Furthermore, given the dismantling of squads, the survival of others and the lack of officers, the specialists on those squads don't have the time and the ability to train anyone.

I don't want to sound dramatic, but I can assure you that, on Montreal island, my squad has no more than eight investigators. In every region there are some sixty investigators of narcotics. So it is a little inconsistent. In the field of narcotics, the expertise is shared because there are resources and funding and the system works well; when it comes to exploitation, there are too few officers to be able to share anything.

Could you remind me about the second half of your comments?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I'm sorry, the time is up. Maybe we can try to get around again.

Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you very much.

I have so many questions. I'll begin with Dominic, please.

One of the suggestions that has been made to solve the issue is forming a stronger bond between police departments and NGOs, those facilitators on the ground, the people who provide services and support to women. We heard that on Tuesday from Professor Tie from NAWL, and she went on to say that the NGOs are the first contact for women who have been victimized.

What do we need to do, in terms of this committee and parliamentarians, to help these NGOs, to make sure they're there and can make these connections with the police departments?

[Dominic Monchamp]

In my opinion, this problem need the presence of joint units. Here is what I mean by joint units. These units use police officers. I want to start with the police and then I will talk about NGOs.

This is a transborder crime. In a number of cases, the pimps are transporting women from Quebec to Ontario, from Ontario to New Brunswick to mislead or complicate the investigations. It is a transborder crime.

Consequently, when I talk about joint units, I am talking about units staffed by police forces from the various locations. In these joint units, NGOs...

I would like to hear your exact definition of NGOs, because I am not sure I understand.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Non-government organizations.

[Dominic Monchamp]

Okay.

There are two things. The victims may turn to the police, but in some cases this can be problematic because some victims still see the police as a threat. It is often useful for them to be detached from police services; in some cases this can be helpful.

I am bothered because I do not have the answer to your question. Furthermore I don't know if I am the best person to answer it. Perhaps Shauna Paull would be in a better position than I to answer your question.

Obviously, there should be very close cooperation between NGOs and the police but I don't know how this should be done in concrete terms. Nevertheless, both sides must work in close cooperation.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

I would like to pursue this with Ms. Paull. We heard at the same time that Status of Women Canada was taking a lead role in addressing trafficking, that there had been some very important work.

Now, as I'm sure you know, there have been changes to the mandate and there have been funding cuts. I'm wondering, from your perspective, what kind of impact that has on the work of the community and your work in particular.

[Shauna Paull]

I think there are a couple of areas where the changes to the terms and conditions are going to be very, very difficult for us. One is with regard to advocacy and lobbying. Certainly without the work that has happened across the country with regard to advocating for protections, we would not have had even the temporary resident permit, which is not a good solution, but we wouldn't have even had that. The work continues for full legislative protection for trafficked persons. Unless we have adequate funding to continue that work, the women who are working directly with the trafficked persons will not be able to partner with them in informing the policy that fits for women who are being victimized. So it's very, very important that funding for lobbying and advocacy be continued.

In terms of our work as well, while there is a great deal of research that has happened around trafficking, the particular area that Status of Women has for independent research, the independent research fund, enables us to do certain kinds of research with vulnerable populations in ways that are different from, say, an academic researcher. What does that mean? Again, it involves community-based strategies. It involves participation of the women who have the lived experience, and it privileges those.

We aren't sure exactly what will be happening with the independent research fund, but it's of concern to us, because in the past it has funded things in ways that no other funding agency would have funded, and in particular, the methodologies that we're able to use in those constructs are very, very important to reducing that “us” and “them” dichotomy that exists.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

Have I more time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have one minute left.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Oh, dear.

I must apologize. I was late because I was doing a media interview. Ironically, I was not being taken seriously. I was talking about the sexism and the sort of institutionalized attitude towards women, and I was dismissed as clearly not understanding what I was speaking of. I think that underscores precisely my concern.

Canadian women are facing a lot of issues, the lack of proactive pay equity, child care, housing, and the loss of the court challenges program. Does that sort of institutionalized attitude that women don't deserve contribute to this situation that we're talking about in terms of the vulnerability of women and the trafficking of women?

[Shauna Paull]

It absolutely does. I think we are in a moment where we need to give some deep consideration to emerging models for women's equality. Obviously I don't want to underestimate the effect of sexual exploitation on women, but I also think that if we continue to speak about women as unable to identify solutions for themselves, and if we disarm women from being able to access avenues for advocacy and for change, we will continue to reiterate a marginalized place for women. In particular, women who are involved in irregular migration really need substantive partnering from a women's equality perspective in order to ameliorate these issues.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Minna.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Paull, what have you learned so far about the factors that fuel trafficking within Canada? What are the factors that actually fuel trafficking? We could maybe address the root causes of some of them.

[Shauna Paull]

Absolutely, and I think it's very important. As we talk about resources for prosecution, we need to be reminded that there's a prevention element, there's a prosecution element, and there's a protection element. Within that protection element we can go to what the root causes are of migration.

It's very important not to homogenize who is a trafficked woman and why she is moving. Every woman has her own particular reasons for her migration; however, there are obviously some root causes. Largely, poverty is one, and I think that's important to address, not only in transnational migrations, where global economic disparities are at play, but also within Canada as well, where intergenerational poverty and other historical factors are fueling the vulnerability of our aboriginal women in particular. As I noted, there's also the dispossession and displacement of people as a result of armed conflict and disasters.

By and large, the women I work with are economic migrants. I think we need to decriminalize that notion. We need to understand that we are now a generation into the effects of globalization, and there isn't an economist alive who thinks that globalization is a good idea anymore. Now we're having to pay the price, which is that we have 190 million people who are travelling the planet without homes. We know that we have the resources to actually provide, from a human rights perspective, but we need to be courageous and do that. We need to act on it.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I just have two very quick questions for you.

How does your organization define “trafficking”? We're looking at the definition and we have an idea of what we want to put down, but maybe you could help us with how to define that.

My other question, and maybe you could deal with them together, is whether you have any data or estimates with respect to how many women--and children, obviously--are victims of trafficking each year in Canada and which parts of the country are the most affected.

[Shauna Paull]

What we have is the RCMP data, which is that 800 people are trafficked into Canada, and 1,500 to 2,200 are trafficked through Canada. Now, NGOs don't have the surveillance and other kinds of resources to do statistics that way, and I actually think the request for statistics, from the NGO perspective, anyway, is coming to us from a need to document and identify the experience. Our response is to say that these are people in migration; these are people who are vulnerable. The numbers should not be the issue--one woman is too many.

In terms of definition, we pretty much use the protocol definition, even though it's problematic in our work. I think it's important to understand that extending our understanding of what we mean by trafficking is really important, and the conflation of sexual exploitation to the exclusion of other forms of labour exploitation also does a disservice to those who are having their labour rights violated.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you.

Mr. Stanton.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have just a couple of quick questions for Ms. Paull.

On this question of funding, in particular for advocacy and lobbying--I suppose I could call it--I'm not too sure how you've come to the conclusion that this is something you no longer will be able to receive. Have you made application under Status of Women Canada, or has something been communicated to you directly that would suggest that your activities won't be eligible?

[Shauna Paull]

No. I think in terms of project funding, probably we would be able to access funding for projects for services, but in terms of creating a combination of service and advocacy that addresses the need for the lived experience to inform policy and law making, the funding for lobbying and advocacy groups may not be available to us anymore.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

You don't know that for sure, though.

[Shauna Paull]

That's what seems to be clear from the changes to the terms and conditions, as I understand them.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Okay, but you don't have any experience to this point that would suggest that will be the case.

[Shauna Paull]

No.