Status of Women Committee on Nov. 9th, 2006

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Okay. In respect of your funding in general, what percentage of your activities would be in the former that you mentioned, the actual programs that you do on the ground helping victims of trafficking and vulnerable people, as compared, shall I say, to the administrative side in your organization?

[Shauna Paull]

I think if you look at the history of women's equality movements in our country, it's impossible to understand equality rights without an awareness of the contributions of women's equality movements across the country. And that goes all the way back, including the section 15 consultations, where the women's equality lobby was key.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

But if I could, my question was, how much of your funding is directed to sort of community-based delivery of services versus administrative costs?

[Shauna Paull]

I'm trying to get to that. Philosophically, advocacy and service provision are connected. It's in the taking apart of those things that women's equality is damaged and is at risk.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

But you really won't know whether that's ineligible until you apply--

[Shauna Paull]

I know for sure, because I live in British Columbia, where the Ministry of Women's Equality has been dismantled and where funding to women's centres has been dismissed, and the effect on not only women's equality awareness and the public discussion around women's equality as well as the services and the ways in which women can be empowered by accessing those services...has been reduced dramatically. I know that for sure.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Do you know the names of those organizations? Was that in the last month or so? You mentioned that these organizations that have been--

[Shauna Paull]

I think what we're dealing with is an historical moment where women's equality is being attacked, and I'm saying that in terms of addressing issues of trafficked women, which is what my work is about, it will have an ill effect.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Attacked by whom?

[Shauna Paull]

The changes to the terms and conditions.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

But we don't really know how that's going to actually play out until we have applications and programs are applied for.

[Shauna Paull]

You know what? When someone travels across this country to speak to you about the work she is doing with other women, for whom our country has an obligation to meet their human rights...I am not going to be played with here.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I'm not taking anything away from you, Ms. Paull. I'm simply trying to get at the root of your assertions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you, Mr. Stanton.

We have time for one last questioner. Ms. Deschamps or Ms. Mourani.

This will be our last questioner. Then we need to get on to committee business.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Paull, for your courage. I have a question for you. Your organization undertook a project in 2005-07 on, among other things, an analysis of the structural policy factors fostering human trafficking.

Am I mistaken?

[Shauna Paull]

Yes. I think that was undergone by Annalee Lepp, who was actually meant to be here today and for whom I'm pinch-hitting.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Could you tell us about it?

[Shauna Paull]

If you have a particular question, possibly. I do have a paper that I could forward to the committee.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

In fact, since the beginning of such studies, it seems that this is difficult to quantify and assess and that there is a lack of clarity about human trafficking. We met with the RCMP and Mr. Dandurand. I would like to understand, but I cannot.

I am not a research centre. However, I was able to describe what was happening in Montreal in terms of street gangs. I am unable to understand why major research centres are unable to determine what is happening in terms of human trafficking in Canada. I recently received an article on the famous seminar which took place in Sydney, during which participants determined that our efforts are failing.

I would like to understand. Other than the definition that says it all and means nothing at the same time, is there a lack of political will? Are there any specific interests that mean that this phenomenon is more or less taken seriously or studied? Are there any major economic issues tying states to this kind of trafficking? What is the problem?

[Shauna Paull]

A variety. And if you'll permit me to rest in the insubstantial for a little bit, of human experience.... Trying to define the power dynamics that exist between vulnerable people and people with more power is so subtle it's very difficult to come to a clear definition of what that means. What's required is an organic response on a case-by-case basis.

One of the other barriers to coming to terms with numbers and statistics also has to do with the fact that although we might want to prosecute the pimp or the trafficker, there's still nothing in place to protect the woman. If she is out of status or if she is in an irregular immigration position, the practice remains to detain and deport. Not only is she at risk for something the NGOs don't want to have happen to her, detention and deportation, but then she's gone and we don't have access to her story.

Who defines trafficking is a question that's still up for grabs, and it's of deep concern to us. For example, we have had domestic workers in the LCP who are not only experiencing severe forms of exploitation, including economic exploitation, but also sexual and physical violence. For whatever reason, because money for sex is not involved, we're unable to get enforcement support for that person.

When we think about the enforcement community in addressing this issue, we have people like Dominic who are trying to support the victim as much as they can. Then we have the Canada Border Services Agency, which has a different mandate, and then we have CIC, which has a different mandate again.

We have been working on a collaborative model in British Columbia, but we haven't been able to come to terms with the competing agendas. Part of the inability to come to terms with all of this has to do with the fact that we haven't seen enough evidence and we're not sure enough that women's rights will be respected and that there are adequately funded social services and access to legal support for women to encourage them to come forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Ms. Paull and Mr. Monchamp, for coming this morning and sharing your knowledge with us. The committee is much more enlightened as a result of your testimony this morning. Thank you both very much.

We will suspend the meeting for one minute so the witnesses can leave, and then we will get to our committee business.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I call the meeting back to order.

We have several issues we need to focus on. A list of witnesses has been submitted, and we have to decide a variety of things. How many meetings do we want to have. What should the deadline for submissions be? How many groups should appear at each meeting? And so on. There are quite a few questions and quite a few associations that have already sent in their names, and I suspect more may be added to this list.

The first question is, to be fair to everyone, when do we want a deadline for submissions?

Ms. Smith, a comment?

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Yes, two comments. Number one, someone's just put a list together and whacked it here. This is a huge, huge list, and my concern is we have to decide on the number of meetings. I can only see one or two. It should be done before Christmas, because we have to close off what we're doing now. This is not human trafficking. This is our mandate and we're getting away from our mandate.

I can see something like this happening after Christmas. We could plug these people in after Christmas, because we're doing the economic side of it and that goes hand in hand with.... Right now we have Christmas break coming up, we have a break next week, and I'm concerned we won't do it as well as we'd like to.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I have a suggestion. The first 58 on this list have been submitted by members of the committee. Where you see one asterisk or two asterisks, those particular requests came in from several members of the committee. We could try to deal with what we have from the committee and have the analysts take a look at the other lists that are attached here and come back with a suggestion after break week on whether or not we want to meet with those groups.

The first two pages contain submissions by the committee members. I suspect that Mr. Stanton may have some others he wants to add to this list, and then the clerk would have to sort out where we are going.

As a suggestion, we could do Wednesday November 22, 3:30 to 5:30, and Monday, December 4, 3:30 to 5:30 or 3:30 to 6:30, and just set aside two meetings and say we will do that, so that it doesn't interfere with the other work of the committee, but I'm not sure there will be sufficient time.

Go ahead, please Ms. Minna and then Ms. Mourani.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Ms. Mourani goes first.