Status of Women Committee on Nov. 21st, 2006

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Do I have more time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have a minute and a half.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I have a brief question, then.

We've heard much from previous witnesses about supports for victims of trafficking. I wonder what each of you thinks--though we probably don't have time--in terms of what additional supports the government should be providing for victims of trafficking, what the responsibilities of the federal government are and what the responsibilities of the provincial government are for housing or counselling or whatever the nature of the supports.

[Irene Sushko]

May I venture, then, to clarify that the congress does not specifically deal with projects. We deal more with awareness raising and encouraging programs and projects. But certainly there needs to be a really good network established so that NGOs can assist those who are victims. As I mentioned in some of my comments, victims are not readily willing to go to the police or doctors or people of authority, because some of them have come from countries where they were abused by these people. I'm not sure how, but we need to think about that and have a plan for networking, where NGOs, particularly, can have resources and can work with government agencies on being able to help and protect and assist the victims.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Sister Isaacs, just shortly, did you want to respond?

[Deborah Isaacs]

It's briefly outlined in the B.C. plan. There is housing--short-term, long-term, and emergency. There is medical, both psychological and physical. The interim federal health will cover for four months, but some provinces have a wait time also, so if they're going to stay any longer, you might have to extend it longer than that, until they qualify for the provincial. There is social welfare, and possibly job employment training, because most of them have known no employment except prostitution. There is rehabilitation, and a choice of whether they want to go back to their own country or not. What they also have to look at is providing help if they do want to go back to their countries of origin, because some of the countries cannot do it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Mourani.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank all of you for your testimony.

My question is for Mr. Perrin. In your recommendations, on page 8 of your brief, you say, and I quote:

With recent amendments to the Criminal Code and the CIC Interim Guidelines, a basic legal framework is now in place and will allow Canadian authorities to begin to address the challenge of human trafficking.

We met a morality investigator from the City of Montreal Police Department last week, I believe. He seemed to be saying that the law was not very effective in helping them do their work. In fact, he clearly stated that the section of the Criminal Code on human trafficking was not used at all by the MPD.

Is the law really effective? Should improvements be made to the Criminal Code? To what section of the law? Is it the one on procuring, trafficking or having a bawdy house? Firstly, what should be amended, concretely, in the act, in the Criminal Code?

Secondly, what must we do so that sex tourism abroad and the actions of persons who partake in sex tourism do not remain unpunished? What needs to be changed in the law?

Lastly, you say that the Interdepartmental Working Group on Trafficking in Persons (IWGTIP) — and you will correct me on this if I am wrong — is ineffective, in some ways, or has simply not fulfilled its mandate well. You propose to replace it by the Canadian Counter-Human Trafficking Office.

I would like to understand what this office would be and what it would do differently from the IWGTIP that would make it more effective.

[Benjamin Perrin]

Thank you very much. I can answer part of it in French and continue in English.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

It’s okay, you can speak in English, if you wish.

[Benjamin Perrin]

Okay.

First, on the child sex tourism issue, it is very difficult to engage in extraterritorial investigations. There's no doubt about that. The only successful prosecution was with respect to Donald Bakker in British Columbia. He was the first man convicted under the child sex tourism law, and that was an accidental investigation. That he had sexually exploited children abroad was only discovered after his computer was seized.

So how do other countries do it? That's sort of our approach. Other countries are regularly prosecuting their foreign pedophiles who go abroad. And they really operate with impunity. In Cambodia, you can see them walking down the street arm in arm with girls who are 8, 9, or 10 years old, and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it there.

They deal with it through liaison officers in the embassies. The Australian federal police have liaison officers. The Americans have law enforcement officers, not in every embassy, but in the focused, highest-risk areas. They don't just work on human trafficking and child sex tourism; they also deal with drug trade issues and other transnational organized crimes. So it's largely an enforcement issue at this point.

The RCMP have been given information about Canadian pedophiles operating abroad, as detailed as passport copies, trip manifests, and even witness statements. We were able to provide them with these types of evidence. We actually participated successfully in the prosecution of an American pedophile, using the same model. The Americans were able to send a team, they investigated, and this resulted in a conviction.

Unfortunately, the way our law works, when we have a foreign pedophile operating abroad like this—bouncing between countries and never coming back to Canada—there's no way to get him. Also you're not able to hold Canadian citizens at the border when they return, unless you have enough evidence against them to result in an arrest warrant. So it is very difficult, but it can be done, and the answer, in our view, is resources and a liaison officer program.

Now, on the question of the interdepartmental working group, why would an office be better? The main issue we see is there needs to be a central focal point for funding for human trafficking, because right now we'd be at a loss to say there is any funding going to human trafficking, other than for the meetings of the interdepartmental working group and the poster campaign at the federal level. So there needs to be a focal point, which is also important for accountability.

We see this office as being able to develop and propose initiatives that go back to the individual departments that are involved. So rather than having 17 departments around the table discussing what would really involve programs in only two or three of them, why not have a central office with expertise in human trafficking, bring together the best people in Canada to work in this office, give them the funding they need, and give them a mandate to liaise with the relevant departments?

We see this as a new approach that could work. Other countries have done so, and it has resulted in increased accountability—and, I should add, the office would report to Parliament. There should be a report to Parliament on how many victims have been assisted, how many have been repatriated, and how many traffickers have been investigated and charged. This is information that as a country we don't have right now.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Would it be a research office, a police information centralization office, or simply a political office?

[Benjamin Perrin]

I see it as fulfilling a central function of gathering all the research, but making substantive proposals and actually working with departments to implement pilot projects and to direct funding. So this would be the office that would actually have a framework in place where they can decide where the funding is going. This isn't to take control away from the department; it's to try to put accountability in the hands of a single point that's responsible for dealing with it.

Right now, if an organization wants to meet with the federal interlocutor for human trafficking, I ask you, who do they call? What's the number? There is none. People have been told to talk to the justice minister or the foreign affairs minister, and that's all fine and good, but we're talking about really low, street-level work.

I'm an aid worker. I have a victim in my house. What do I do? Who do I tell that person to call?

We get calls like that as an organization, through our website, so there needs to be an answer to that question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Smith.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank all the presenters today. Indeed, it's very important that you're here today educating us and helping us on this very horrific crime that has to be stopped.

My first question is for Mr. Perrin.

I'm very interested in what you say about the human trafficking office. I would agree with you that there is absolutely no focal point with expertise, somewhere someone can go for assistance.

We talked about funding. Let's say, hypothetically, if an office such as this was set up, they would have input into the funding and where the funding should go.

I was meeting this morning with a group of people who took care of homeless shelters. As we all know, human-trafficked people need a shelter, but the shelters we currently have are not adequate. In my view, it needs to be shelters because they need some time. You can't just apprehend or rescue trafficked persons and then have them testify. It doesn't work. A lot of them are very afraid of police. They've been intimidated over months or years, and that doesn't work.

In terms of an office like this, where would you predict funding would go that would usefully address...?

I agree, number one, that the age of consent has to be raised. Number two, consent shouldn't even be an issue when people are apprehended. They are helpless victims of a horrific crime.

We have a unique situation here because some of these women also come with small children, if they become pregnant. One woman in Toronto I've been working with from Mexico has a 10-month-old daughter. There are different kinds of things these people need.

Could you comment on that, Mr. Perrin, in terms of shelters and the differences between what we know now and what should be there?

[Benjamin Perrin]

I will start with the funding issue. As you pointed out, it's the biggest issue right now. I don't know what the amount would be. Thomas Axworthy has said $100 million for human trafficking initiatives is required. I think that sounds like a reasonable figure. It certainly sounds round, and I'm not sure what went into that.

We would propose that the best use of the funds would be to go back to that three-point framework. The money should ideally be following the victim. That's what you want to do in any social program. It's very difficult to do in something like health care where all Canadians are involved, but in something like human trafficking, where we're actually only talking about maybe 25 to 30 victims in the first year, the guidelines are up and operating. That's how it's played out in Australia and the United States. You should essentially have packages for various victims. Some victims will require a work permit and housing; others who want to be returned home as soon as possible will not. That program needs to be developed, and this office can play a role in that.

Sufficient funding for that could easily come from that $100 million. We're not actually talking about a lot of money when it comes to the victim assistance side. That's a bill the federal government could opt to fill, but certainly under its jurisdiction it wouldn't be required to.

On the prosecution side, it's only a drop in the bucket if you're just dealing with victims. Here's how your criminal justice system would work. For people who commit murder, a break and enter, and shoplifting, we're not going to send them to court any more. All we're going to do is say to someone, did you have your car broken into? Come to the government, we'll help you fix it. If someone was killed, we'll give you some counselling. No, don't worry about the murderer who's on the street or the person robbing your houses.

That's essentially what's going on right now with respect to human trafficking, not for any lack of hard work by the law enforcement agencies. They've seen it and they've told us they're not properly funded to do this. That's a huge piece, and it is probably the biggest dollar amount required with respect to getting into these organized criminal networks.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Do I have time for another question, Madam Chair? Thank you.

I don't know if you're aware of this, but a couple of weeks ago Liz Crawford, an international model, testified here about the trafficking of Canadian girls who have been not from poor, rejected families, which we often think human trafficking victims are from, but from ordinary families. We know this is increasing, but we don't have the data, which is something else this office could be acquiring.

Could you comment on some of the things that could be done to prevent this kind of thing from happening in the modelling agencies? From what I'm finding, it's very prevalent, and I'm absolutely shocked and alarmed by it.

[Benjamin Perrin]

Again, we draw our inspiration from what has worked internationally.

One of our projects dealt with young people who were told that they were going to go and get a job in the big city. In Cameroon we started to work on a program to set up a safe community network. There was one person on one end--if they didn't have family, that one person would be a trusted member of the community, or a social worker--and there was someone else on the other end. So you're going to work in the city? Okay. But we have someone at the other end who's going to make sure that when you get there, you do end up doing what you signed up for. That someone checks up on the individual. So this actually is a very unique model that could work.

Now, a little less intensive and an easier, more achievable step would be information. These young women need to know that if it smells like a rat, it probably is. They need to know what questions they should ask. And there are questions they can ask that will allow them to find out if they are in fact getting into something they didn't bargain for.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you.

I really have to commend the Ukrainian Canadian Congress for the 2004 resolution that was put down. I certainly commend the world organization as well that worked on that.

Irene, could you please comment on some of the things the UCC has been involved in with regard to the human trafficking issue?

[Irene Sushko]

Certainly.

Our big effort is to raise awareness and to encourage our member organizations to plan similar sessions, to become involved in all the communities. The Help Us Help The Children initiative in Toronto is working with some of the orphans who have reached the age of 16 and need a place to go. We have a committee doing that. The World Federation of Ukrainian Women's Organizations has done a lot of work internationally.

So the community is becoming very much involved. As a follow-up to some of the forums that we had planned, I'm so pleased that some of the organizations are continuing this. It's kind of mushrooming. They're creating these awareness sessions.

With all the things we're talking about today, I believe if people don't know about it, they're not going to act. Awareness is extremely important.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Yes, I certainly would agree.

Is my time over, Madam Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Yes, I'm sorry, it is.

Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'm going to pose some questions to whoever would like to jump in. I'd appreciate hearing from everyone, if possible, or whoever feels most comfortable answering.

We've heard from various police forces--Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal police have been here--that NGOs are very important as a resource to support trafficking victims. I'm wondering what additional resources NGOs need to do this important work, and what resources you would require from government.

[Deborah Isaacs]

First of all, it's the money. Most of us are strapped as it is, especially some of us in the settlement area in certain provinces.

I know in B.C. they're looking at having some NGO and government personnel go out with the police on a raid to take charge of the victims so they're not further traumatized and scared by police contact .

They were also talking about some advocacy from NGOs on behalf of the victims, who may not, at times, have legal help--and that's another area I forgot to mention earlier when we talked about services.

As I say, the agency I work with in Vancouver has been named the lead agency in B.C., whenever some money is available, to do case management and allocate what's needed.

There will be needs assessments. There will be databases that have to be built up of services available in each province, and there has to be developed communication between provinces. I worked in Montreal before. We had a young lad who was in domestic labour at age 13. After much prodding, they finally started investigating, and the family picked up and moved to Ontario. If there's no communication from one province to another, things get dropped. In some cases, you do have to move people from one province for their own safety.

Another suggestion I would make, trying to catch some of this, is for some communication between immigration and education, at least for children, so that you can pick up who's coming in but is not going to school. At the moment there is absolutely none. Of course, these victims are not going to school.

It's just a way of trying to get some control. All of this takes money.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I was doing some background reading on UN advice in regard to violence against women. They did reference trafficking specifically. There was an indication that we simply don't have the information. We don't know how many people and children are trafficked in and how many are trafficked out.

The suggestion from the UN and from you is that governments need to get involved and start to collect this data so that we know where we are and if there have been any changes or improvements over time. Are NGOs the best people to do that collecting of data or supporting of data, or is there somewhere else?