Status of Women Committee on Nov. 21st, 2006

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Just to clarify on that ministerial permit issue, the goal is humanitarian and compassionate grounds. They have been used for many years--humanitarian and compassionate grounds--for a variety of reasons. People who have been pointed out as being involved in human trafficking have quite often been given a two-year minister's permit in order to try to deal with that issue.

It has a label, and it's a good move forward because you're identifying a particular segment of people. They have been used a variety of times in previous years.

[Benjamin Perrin]

Can I make a brief point on that, Madam Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Can we do that after?

[Benjamin Perrin]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I'm taking up time here, and I don't want to take it away from our questioners.

[Benjamin Perrin]

Of course.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the panel today. Just when I think we've heard testimony that won't continue to alarm, that exactly becomes the case. I really appreciate the time you've taken to come and join us today and offer these insights.

Sister Isaacs' presentation made some comments with respect to the definition of the Palermo Protocol. It highlighted a couple of the points where the NGOs have actually been critical.

This was in your opening comments, Ms. Isaacs. After your presentation, Madam Kryszko actually spoke in terms of comments that were rather supportive of the Palermo Protocol with respect to identifying. There was a little disconnect there.

I wonder, Ms. Kryszko, if you could perhaps speak to some of those comments. Just to remind you what they were, you said essentially that the Palermo Protocol addresses trafficking within the context of organized crime rather than within the framework of migrant rights, and further, that it frames anti-trafficking measures as migration control measures. You seem to have a really good handle on the legal context here. Would you be prepared to comment on those criticisms?

[Barbara Kryszko]

Originally, and certainly, the Palermo Protocol is connected to the organized crime treaty, as one of the intentions was to combat organized crime. However, the definition I was speaking of is very broad. I think the trafficking definition should be used because it is the most protective of victims; it's very extensive, as I pointed out. It does have a human rights perspective in terms of the victims, including all of the different means used to coerce and to get victims, basically, trafficked. So from that angle, we are pleased with the definition.

Certainly, the protocol has some gaps. It's really only the floor for certain things. For example, in article 6, in regard to some of the services for victims, it says “shall consider” instead of just “shall” in terms of the language used in the protocol. So it's not strong enough in saying that the countries must deliver certain services. To that extent, we would be concerned that countries are sometimes not delivering everything that's in the protocol, because there is some wiggle room in the protocol. But again, as a floor, we certainly see it as something that's helpful. And the protocol is just meant to be a basic international guideline or standard now, rather than the maximum human rights protection that can be afforded.

So I think there are some gaps that can be filled in. But from our perspective, it does have a definition that is protective of trafficking victims' human rights.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

If I can save a minute for Mr. Perrin, I'll first give Ms. Isaacs a chance to comment here too, if you don't mind. I don't want to leave you out of the discussion, since I involved you in it.

[Deborah Isaacs]

Well, first of all, I mentioned that the definition used here is an adaptation of the Palermo Protocol, which is not exactly what we have here. But there are certain things that are questionable.

Sometimes live-in caregivers who are brought over and exploited, and sometimes raped, by their employers can leave. They're not threatened in the same way; they have a legal status. But because of certain pressures, etc., they're afraid to leave because they may not get another job, which is important. There's criminality, right, and exploitation. I'm not saying these are part of all cases of live-in caregivers, but in certain cases these have been used, and they would not come under trafficking as interpreted by, let's say, the police, etc. But there are other criminal events involved in it, and I think these people need some sort of protection too, to make it easier for them so they're not punished for coming forth.

As for other areas, I've seen people coming from countries where no visa is required. They promise them things like English language and some work; they pay the way here for these people, where they pay a fee to an agency who places them in an exploitive situation. The people don't get the English and they don't get what was promised, etc., but they can leave.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Okay. Thank you for that.

Madam Chair, I'll just go quickly to Mr. Perrin. I was very impressed with the very thorough presentation, by the way. You obviously have a connection and are working in this area outside of our borders.

Could you comment on where Canada stands in terms of other countries? We've heard that Canada is both a destination and a point of transit for human trafficking. Where is Canada in the ranking of these destinations worldwide? You've referred to the term “watch list”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

A brief response, Mr. Perrin.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[Benjamin Perrin]

I think it's important not to exaggerate how big a problem it is; otherwise you may get concerned when you start to deal with it that the victims are not showing up. Canada is not the worst country in the world; it's probably not in the worst half of the countries in the world for being a source country.

Our understanding is that the principal concerns are that it's a transit country to the United States, which is probably the biggest single aspect of the Canadian trafficking puzzle.

That said, and again, I'm not going to throw out figures, as the committee has heard how difficult the statistics are, there is a substantial victim pool in Canada and individuals who require assistance now. So this is not a small problem, by any stretch of the imagination, in terms of criminal policy, to go and rescue these individuals. It certainly is required.

I hope this strikes an appropriate balance for a response.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you.

Ms. Deschamps.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you very much for your testimony. I have listened very carefully to the information you provided.

I would first like to know how you are funded. Where do your resources come from?

What you have brought us is an incredible amount of work. There is information here that we can consider and on which we can already act. For example, Mr. Perrin’s brief contains elements that could enable us to make resources available to you here, in Canada. I think we can even say it will be possible for the government to work collaboratively and in concert with you with regard to everything you are already doing in the field. You have already developed expertise and know the problems.

So what could the government do right away to meet the most urgent and most pressing needs?

[Benjamin Perrin]

In my view, it's most important to focus on the successes that are occurring in Canada. We're not looking for a cheque from the committee, or for the government to write off a cheque. That's the goal for substantial funding here.

What is needed, though...for example, in Vancouver they do have their own framework. That project, which is coming along quite far, needs to be supported sufficiently. The training on the CIC interim guidelines and NGO outreach should be a priority. These are things that can be done for a relatively low cost, in particular the training side. It's simply a matter of what's trained on the next month for front-line officers. So the number one thing that Canada could do now is to work with its existing legislation. You'll notice we're not calling for any changes to any legislation at this point. The framework is there. The issue is now getting the maximum value out of it.

I know it's difficult for any government to find funding, so that's why we would not recommend going back and engaging in further studies of the numbers. I mean, that's important to know, but it should not be a priority; it should be making use of the tools we have right now.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Let us get back to my first question. What are your sources of funding? How do you operate? Are you like non-government organizations?

[Benjamin Perrin]

You're asking what is our source of financing for our organization? It's private funding. We started out by hosting community bake sales and garage sales. Since then we've attracted some donors who have a little bit more money, but our typical donor gives $100. We also were able to get some money from the Wild Rose Foundation, which is funded through the Alberta government lottery system, but we operate on a very meagre budget. We've been doing this in a volunteer capacity for six years now and have not earned a dime the whole time. It's not why we do it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you very much.

It seems to me that we're always talking about the effects of horrific crime; we're dealing with the aftermath of something dreadful that has happened to human beings.

I noted in your presentation that you talked about prevention and the question of decriminalization, but there's also a piece in which you talk about international and national economic policies, globalization, of various countries, like Cameroon, Cambodia, and Myanmar--Burma--which we know has the worst human rights record in the world.

I wonder if you can draw a correlation between the kinds of global and trade treaties that places like Canada has with these countries and prevention. What should we be doing in terms of our acceptance of cheap labour, cheap goods, in places like Wal-Mart and stores around the country, that come from these countries, to change that economic paradigm in favour of helping people so that they don't end up victims, so that they don't end up being economically deprived and in brothels?

[Benjamin Perrin]

Our experience in looking at this has been that as countries open their borders for the free flow of ideas and free trade, of course, it also opens up the markets for abuse. We haven't seen a direct correlation between free trade and the trafficking industry, though. It doesn't mean free trade causes trafficking, and it's not a link that we have found exists at all.

To the contrary, what we've found works best in our programming is when we empower young women to start their own small businesses if they want to. For example, in one of the programs we have in Cambodia, they're trained to choose whether they want to open their own restaurant, whether they want to be hairdressers, or whether they want to do something else. These are very common and very easy businesses to start. They were being trained, but no government or NGO was giving them training on the business side of it to actually make sure they didn't run out of money at the end of the month and starve. That's really where a lot can be done.

We heard a lot about micro-credit in the last week. There are some advantages to it and some disadvantages too.

Certainly, at the individual level, I think individual enterprise is where you can really help to stop someone from being sucked into human trafficking. It's really at that level, and it's not at the trade agreement level.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay. Is there no concern about the fact that we see slave labour in these contracted factories, where children and women are virtually slave labour, in order to feed our markets? Are we being complicit in terms of our consumption?

[Benjamin Perrin]

Oh, I think everyone would be concerned with child labour, but there's not a link to human trafficking that we've identified. In other words, the children you're talking about are staying in the country of origin, and that's a different problem.