Status of Women Committee on May 16th, 2006

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I call the meeting to order.

I hope everyone has had a positive weekend and is back to work again.

You have several items in front of you we have sent off. You have a blue binder, a briefing binder from the Library of Parliament that Julie has put together with a lot of information on what's been done by the committee up until today. If you have any questions or anything you need to have answers to, please don't hesitate to raise them. We also have the routine motions, as adopted by the committee in our last meeting. They were sent by e-mail on Monday.

You have in front of you a proposed workplan document based on our discussion at the last meeting. You will notice on the first page what we agreed to do for the first three meetings while we were working through our workplan. And that will probably concentrate more on the fall than it will this session. We would have on the 18th of May a report from Statistics Canada on women in Canada, a gender-based statistical report for 2005 on family violence in Canada, a statistical profile for 2005. They are committed and confirmed for the 18th, which is this Thursday. We would then have break week, and on the 30th of May we have invited departmental officials from Status of Women Canada to give us a bit of breakdown and a briefing on some of the things they have already been working on, specifically the violence against women, women's poverty, and matrimonial property rights, which are all issues of interest to the committee that the committee has flagged.

On the first of June, we would look at the 2006-07 estimates for Status of Women Canada, priorities for Status of Women Canada, and the follow-up on the implementation of recommendations from the committee's previous report. We have asked the Minister of Canadian Heritage and the Status of Women, the Honourable Beverley Oda, to also appear. Have we had a confirmation from the minister yet? We are waiting for confirmation. Hopefully she will be able to join us at that meeting.

That is basically where we're starting off, with what we agreed to last week. On the following page are the issues we need to have some discussion on today as to where we would want to move forward in prioritizing our issues both for the balance of our session here until we rise in June, and into planning for the fall session so that various staff could be organizing up witnesses and areas that we would want to deal with in the fall. It would be important to go through this list and get comments back from the members as to where they would like the committee to focus on come the fall as well.

Ms. Smith.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you.

It's very exciting to see this agenda. I think we have some really good things. Thank you, Madam Chair, so much for putting the workplan discussion document in place. I think it's very helpful to see that.

I promised last week, Madam Chair, that I would.... You had asked for agendas. I wanted to reassure you that we had submitted the agendas well ahead of time, so I would like to read this into the record very briefly before we go into the workplan, which I think is very good.

The e-mail we received on May 9, at 1:14 p.m. from Maria Mourani said members of the Standing Committee on the Status of Women wishing to submit topics for the committee's future business should send it to the committee's e-mail account—which is agreed—and on Wednesday, May 10, the clerk will compile a bilingual list of items, etc.

We got that e-mail and we responded to it very clearly for you, so I wanted you to know that request was complied with. At 10:37 we sent the following: matrimonial property rights for aboriginal women, poverty among aboriginal women, poverty among senior women, and human trafficking. That was sent, and then it was all straightened out because Michelle Tittley was so kind to send us a reply. She said the oversight was hers and she apologized. This happens in any committee, doesn't it? As I mentioned to you, after the meeting today.... There was an apology for the oversight, so I wanted you to know.

I want to table this document because it says, “I apologize to Mrs. Smith for this oversight and for any confusion resulting from it. I will make an effort to be more vigilant.”

You're very good, excellent, Michelle, thank you. I just wanted the chair to understand that her request was certainly complied with, so I would like to table these documents. You have a copy of it.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Ms. Smith. I apologize for that oversight. Clearly it was certainly not intended, and so noted and taken.

We will move forward to discuss the work plan as it is before you. We've made some suggestions as to what meetings one and two may be. We have put in a request for a meeting with the justice committee and also a meeting with the aboriginal affairs committee, as requested and suggested.

We have the various options here, but for the immediate meetings following the ones that we have booked, we are looking at having Human Resources and Social Development Canada and the National Advisory Council on Aging come and speak to us on the issue of economic security for women in Canada.

Is there a need for, or would you like to have, further discussion on that particular aspect of the meeting?

Yes, Ms. Mourani.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Good morning, everyone.

In my humble opinion, of the last five priorities, the ones that do not have a date, we should start with pay equity. I think it is crucial. A report was tabled last year, and we want to see what is going to happen. I know that the previous government was about to begin work on this bill, and then the election was called and everything came to a halt.

First of all, I think we should be asking questions of the government or the Department of Justice and the Department of Human Resources, which is responsible for the labour program, to find out whether they are preparing anything. I have no information about this. I try to get information from the Department of Human Resources, but I have been unsuccessful.

I would like to know whether these two departments are currently drafting a bill on pay equity. It is fundamental. There are 120,000 women in Quebec who are waiting for this legislation. We have been talking about it for a long time. The time for discussion is over, it is now time to act. I think we should give priority to pay equity, because most of the work has already been done.

In addition, we are in the middle of a major reorganization—a number of bills amending the Criminal Code and the Corrections and Conditional Release Act have already been tabled. I think the Standing Committee on the Status of Women should be looking into this matter before legislation is passed that does not take gender-based analysis into account.

When I read the report on gender-based analysis, I was particularly interested in the Department of Justice. The report states that the Department of Justice—and I am putting it into simple language here—had a great deal to do in this regard. Consequently, I think the members of the Standing Committee on the Status of Women should be concerned. Given that the work is underway at the moment, we could bring forward the point of view and vision of women. We could say what they think about this.

It is very important that we make a serious study of violence against women. I am not saying that this has not been done in the past. I am saying that we should take action regarding sexual assault, particularly since there will be changes made to the sentences. We should also look at human trafficking.

That does not mean that the other points are not priorities. I am just saying that it might be advisable to start by examining these subjects before dealing with others.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Minna.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Madam Chair, to follow up on Madam Mourani's comments, on the front page that we were going through, we had agreed at the last meeting that these were the meetings we wanted to have as a way to get started and to give an overview of the areas we had decided to work on. I obviously don't have any difficulty or problems, with the exception of two things.

One thing is that we agreed to receive the previous reports for scanning, and there had been a suggestion that we as a committee would then ask that those reports be re-tabled so we could get some feedback. We could maybe discuss that today, if we could get to it.

I would suggest the other thing is that, on page two, we have issues that are not yet prioritized. As a committee, we might want to spend a little time prioritizing the issues we want to work on. It would help the researchers, the clerk, and you, Madam Chair, to then prioritize the work in terms of the kinds of materials and the meetings that we need on the basis of the priorities we've chosen.

As part of the work this morning, when we look at the workplan, we might put it aside for a couple of minutes to prioritize and then go back to it. It would certainly help with the future direction of the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Yes, it's the intention to look at the list. It's not in any particular order, but these were the issues that were raised. We're all pretty precise on the issues. We all seem to care very much and feel these are the issues that need to be looked at. The question is on moving forward on them in which ranking and which one we should first move forward on.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Right. That's what I thought we might do now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Yes, exactly.

Ms. Smith.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I have a comment.

This is very good. These are all very important issues.

Last year around the table, I had tried to submit the aboriginal issue, the marriage issue with aboriginal women. For me, on this side, on the issue of matrimonial rights for aboriginal women, I had occasion to actually visit a reserve where my son is an RCMP officer. I had two meetings with the women on this reserve. They said their greatest fear, and where they feel they are held hostage, would be if something breaks down within the family circle, because they could lose their homes. They were hoping that at this time members of Parliament would finally bring this to the forefront.

I took it to two ministers on our side of the government, and I know that Minister Oda's major concern right now is this issue.

I think it's one that we really have to move on, because families are suffering. Every segment of our society deserves equal representation. Looking around the table, I know that if something happened in our family, we would have fair and equitable representation in the courts of the land.

I feel for these women, who are at a huge disadvantage. They're trying to keep their families together, and they're trying to keep their homes. When a marriage breaks down, you don't have a home, you don't have a husband, and you don't have those foundations. I think it's a top priority that we have to look at.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Neville.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you very much.

I would like to endorse Madam Mourani's comments on pay equity. In particular, it is very important that we get a response from this government, whether it involves re-submitting the report we did before. We did have a commitment by the previous Minister of Justice and the previous Minister of Labour to introduce legislation. Even this morning in the news, there are two major private sector agreements on pay equity. It's a pressing issue for women across the country, and it's important that we move forward on it.

I would like to see us focus on the area of economic security for women. Last week Ms. Guergis spoke about it in terms of income splitting. It has come up as it relates to senior women, and it comes up regarding aboriginal women. It has an impact on young women today in terms of accumulating pension or not, and what happens further down the line if there is a marriage breakup, or whatever life hands out. The whole issue of economic security for women should be a priority of this committee. I would like to see us move forward on that in a very broad manner.

I'm repeating myself on the matrimonial property issue. I intended to bring the report with me today, but there was an extensive report done last year on matrimonial property that had almost 40 witnesses appear before the aboriginal affairs committee. The report has been tabled. The committee is attempting to re-submit it to Parliament for a response from the government. For whatever reason, the government chose to attempt to block it yesterday.

The area of matrimonial property is an important issue, but the work has been done already. To bring 37 witnesses to appear again before another committee is a waste of both human and financial resources and our time. I would suggest that we look at the report that was done by the aboriginal affairs committee to see whether we endorse it or not, and not try to reinvent the wheel as it relates to matrimonial property.

What that report did not do, Madam Chair, was look at the impact of Bill C-31 on aboriginal women, which also has far-reaching implications. We may want to do an appendix to it, but to reinvent the wheel and do another full report on matrimonial property is not using our time well, when we have such a full agenda of potential areas of discussion.

The other quick comment is that I'd like to speak again to the issue of re-submitting all the reports that were done by this committee last year for a response from government. It came up last week, and some members said they hadn't had an opportunity to read them. But as part of our work on this committee, it is important that they be read and voted on, as to whether they be re-submitted.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Do you move that as a motion?

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I don't know if I can do it as a motion, or whether you require a notice of motion. If we can do it as a motion, I'd be happy to move that—or to have a consensus, which is how we tended to operate last year.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Based on our discussion last week, all of us were very much interested in seeing those re-submitted, so the government could have a chance to respond by the fall.

Let's finish our discussion, then maybe we can deal with the re-tabling issue of those documents at the end of our meeting. Hopefully we can do it on a consensus basis.

Ms. Bourgeois.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Good morning, ladies and gentleman.

There is so much to be done in the area of the status of women that we must not get off track. The previous committee has already done a great deal of work. I believe Ms. Joy Smith was a member at the time.

I have reviewed the committee's reports from last year. I would like us to review the government's responses, first of all because we have a new government, and secondly because public servants had been assigned to establish procedures to respond to the committee's request.

Before turning to other matters, we must ensure that the work done by the committee in the last Parliament was fruitful. This is a problem. There is so much to be done, and we are proceeding without insuring that action has been taken in response to the previous committee's recommendations.

I would therefore like to move an official motion that we should start by appropriating the reports of the previous committee, not just reviewing them.

Last week, I believe we agreed—and we can check on the proceedings—to study an issue that everyone agrees on—namely aboriginal women. In Quebec, and no doubt in the other provinces as well, there is a committee of aboriginal women that has been fighting since 1974 for recognition of their rights. These women, and their offspring from aboriginal marriages, have no rights at the moment and they lose everything if they separate. This is extremely serious. This subject would lead us incidentally to discuss the rights of aboriginal women in federal prisons with respect to the Correctional Service of Canada as well as the issue of violence against aboriginal women.

In order to get agreement from all committee members, I think this could be our first item of business. I trust we will be talking about pay equity. However, we can table the four reports, and make them our own. There is reference to pay equity and to gender-based analysis.

So I would move that we appropriate the reports of the last committee, that we review them and that we follow up on them. I would also move that we focus on the rights of aboriginal women in Quebec, who have been waiting for recognition since 1974.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you.

Ms. Minna.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Yes, Madam Chair, I would like to suggest.... I agree with Madame Bourgeois and Madame Mourani. We're all saying the same thing here to some degree.

Could I suggest a way to go so that if there is agreement we can move in that direction?

First, of course, everyone has said they've looked at the reports they've received and they need to know what the government's position is. We don't want to have to rewrite those. There was agreement, I think, to some degree last time, that subsequent to us having seen them, they would be retabled. So we could probably do that as a first step. That wouldn't take a great deal of work from us except to retable the reports.

Second would be that we agree to start working on aboriginal matrimonial rights, and we make that our first priority in terms of the work we're going to do. I think Madame Bourgeois and Madame Mourani and others are in agreement.

I think we can work on more than one project as we slot them, but we will make that our first priority.

Thirdly, because there is already a report on pay equity, that would be our third priority. It's not third in the sense that it's not important, but it's third in the sense that there's a report there already, and we want to hear from the government whether it's going to table legislation. This is more a way of monitoring what's happening with pay equity and where we are going and where the government is going. That wouldn't take a great deal of effort on the part of the committee either, given the fact that the report has already been done.

On the aboriginal issue again--just to go back for a moment--we wouldn't want to redo the report. We should first study the report done by the aboriginal committee, because there has been a great deal of work done, and then decide what additional information we want to gather, as Madam Neville has said--the impact of Bill C-31 is one, and we'll see if there is anything else. So we could all read the report and decide how we proceed from there, and then have people come in.

Following that, I would suggest that we could then slot in the issue of violence against women, which includes sexual assault, human trafficking, and the subtext of these, and then economic security, and then we can see how our agenda goes. Obviously, we aren't going to be able to do all these studies that we want, depending on if we are able to break up with some structure.

I would suggest to my colleagues that we follow that order. Table the reports the government will give us, start work on the aboriginal group committee and immediately start reading the report, and have a joint meeting with the committee as we agreed we would do. Then send a request on the government's plans with respect to pay equity. I imagine that when the minister comes, we could have that discussion with her and then follow with the other two topics, time permitting. There is only so much time we have, and I think we need to maximize the time we have on reports, on work that's already been done, either by our committee or by other committees. That allows us to maximize our time, I would suggest.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You'll notice that everyone has a calendar in front of them, as well, so that we can be looking at that as we move forward on those issues.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Sorry, Madam Chair. My question, though, was whether we could get some consensus on whether that kind of priority direction works. Then all we need to do once we know what we've chosen as a priority is start working on the calendar.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Yes, exactly.

Let me get the rest of our speakers, and then we can have that discussion, specifically.

Ms. Smith.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you.

I thank the honourable members across. I agree with Madame Bourgeois. I would very much like to hear what has been done in Quebec. It sounds like you've been pushing since 1974, and I think you have a lot of knowledge you could bring to the table and help us push this forward as quickly and as prudently as we could.

I do have a motion that I would like to present to the committee on that very issue. Because I agree, this is something that has to be addressed immediately, and I think there is a lot of expertise around this table that can help us. I would really like to see that report from Quebec and read it, if you have documentation of the work that's been done. I think we could all share from that expertise. Thank you.

Madam Chair, with your permission, I would like to put a motion on matrimonial property rights for aboriginal women right now on the--

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

We may have consensus. We had consensus....

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

We need a motion, Madam Chair. I don't understand.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I think we're pretty much all in agreement that this is what we want to do—frankly, our first meeting with the aboriginal affairs committee is specific to that report—and move forward on. I think we have consensus automatically that this is the direction the committee wants to go.

Is it necessary to table a motion? If we can all agree on a consensus, it would be just as easy.