Status of Women Committee on Dec. 13th, 2006

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

The government has said to us that we don't need this legislation, because there are already procedures in place that will ensure that equity is achieved. It always comes back to the Charter.

The Court Challenges Program has been abolished. How do you see that decision, from an advocacy perspective?

[Barbara Byers]

The elimination of the court challenges program, the elimination of even just the word “equality” in the mandate.... If we have pay equality, if we have equal pay for work of equal value in this country, how come women on average are still paid 71¢ for every dollar that a man earns? If you're a woman of colour, it's around 60¢. If you're an aboriginal woman, it's around 40¢ on the dollar.

Of course we need it, and of course we need to move on it. It's interesting, the question that was raised with the previous group of panellists. I firmly believe that if we had more women in the House of Commons and throughout all levels of politics, we'd have pay equity by now, because women understand it very clearly.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

My next question is addressed to Ms. Wachniak and Ms. Hayward Williams.

Do you believe that, at this time, women in Canada are equal to men?

[Doraine Wachniak]

They are, absolutely.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Could you give me examples to show that women are really equal to men?

[Doraine Wachniak]

I'm going to just go on.

Before I came here, I made a concerted effort to speak to 43 women. I asked them what they knew of and whether they had accessed the services of Status of Women Canada. The vast majority of the 43--42 women--had heard of the group; on the second question, some of those 42 had not. One of them absolutely had heard of them, and had friends who had accessed services of it, so in terms of equality, most of those women are feeling empowered, feeling they have a position in society that does not require a lot of.... I'm not sure how to word it; I just don't feel unequal.

[Gladys Hayward Williams]

As for me, I am currently employed as a physiotherapist. We have pay equity. I don't think there are any options on that. The majority of the rest of the people in the hospital are nurses, and they have pay equity, so in my world, yes, absolutely. I would say for sure that we are at least equal. Again, my professional leader is female, and her boss is female as well, so I'm not concerned.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Williams.

Ms. Byers and Ms. Pitre, do you have a different opinion on that? Do you believe that women are equal to men?

[Louise Pitre]

I would say they are not. In my opinion, current statistics clearly show that. I would be very curious to know what statistics my colleagues are relying on to say that women are equal to men.

I believe it was Ms. Byers who mentioned that compared to men, women's wages amount to 71 ¢ on the dollar. Furthermore, one woman in four is a victim of violence. In that sense, I do not believe that we are equal to men.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Ms. Pitre.

Ms. Smith.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you.

I find this very interesting today. There are two members of our committee who are really saying what we've heard some other people say about women being unequal. I've always said, and I believe it is our mandate here in the Status of Women, that women are equal and that we need to work at the barriers. Under the Constitution, women are equal. I would never downgrade women and say they're unequal and we'll advocate to make them equal. Under that Constitution in Canada, we are all equal. That doesn't negate the fact that there are barriers that have to be addressed.

Ms. Wachniak, your group has worked very, very hard on this program. I understand from your presentation today that for a number of years a lot of volunteers have come forward.

You said you felt that Status of Women was now inclusive. Could you compare and contrast what you mean by that? We have changed the terms and conditions before. How did you feel that it was not inclusive before? What makes you feel that it now more readily suits what you need for your program on the ground?

[Doraine Wachniak]

My answer would be specifically that I'm not volunteering in my community based on building equity in women. I don't feel I am not equal to men. If you want to define it as having different barriers, you can define it that way, but it's not how I feel.

I look at so many aspects. I see so many progressive women. I'm not on the same page with you at all. I'm a local person who is working for the best interests of young people and their health. I have a heck of a lot of respect for families.

I just find it to be a much more inclusive mandate. I think that is what women of Canada will find when they access the application form.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

That is exactly what this government and this minister has tried to do, to make sure it impacts on women directly on the ground. We heard across the country that there is so much research and there are so many studies and when is the action going to happen.

[Doraine Wachniak]

I would agree. You have a report from 1991 on women's violence. You have a report of 800 submissions, from 1993, on women's violence. We're still using it as one of the priorities. Where have we been? Why, 13 years later, is it still a major issue for women? Who isn't dealing with it? Who hasn't got to the guts of this?

[A voice]

We will.

[Doraine Wachniak]

I have 44 services in Manitoba for women alone. You're telling me I need your service too? Come on, you guys, there are some real errors here. I look at all the services for women that are available. Why are we still here with groups like this saying they need $600,000 or $200,000 or $300,000 to do the same thing?

I know where it is. It's building and strengthening families in Canada. It's in capacity building of families, not capacity building of some women's organization somewhere that doesn't represent me.

When I ask 43 women who the Status of Women is and what they do, they say they don't know and that they've never accessed your service. They are the women walking the streets. I didn't know half of those women. Don't tell me I went to my church and asked the same thinking group; they weren't.

It makes me damn mad that I'm sitting in front of you looking at all the services we have and we're going to continue to say we need more money. We don't need more money; we need to get to the heart of the solutions. Period.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Exactly. I really applaud you for saying that. That's exactly where our minister is trying to change things, so it is inclusive and so that organizations on the ground, women's programming....

We still have the $10.8 million for the women's programming. We have added to the Sisters in Spirit funding. We have supported them, because those are aboriginal needs that are needed.

We're trying to change the face of Status of Women now. Status of Women is about families. It is about making life better for families.

I really thank you for your presentation today. It has been very, very useful.

Ms. Hayward, would you like to comment on that as well?

[Gladys Hayward Williams]

Yes, I completely agree with Doraine that we do need more action. We need more action.

I'd like to refer back, if I can, to the previous panel, where there was a group asking for money so that they could prepare people for political office. I mentioned in my report that I had just been through an election, and there was nothing there for me, but I had heard of it being provided by the senior election official in other areas. That would be, to me, the way it should be done--very inclusive, very non-partisan, and right there, where every election is happening.

I know there is a concern, and I have that concern as well, that we do need to be encouraging women to be running for elected office. For me, in my ward, there were three candidates--all female. I'm elected to a board where five out of nine are female. We went to a provincial convention, and when I looked around the room, there was a significant predominance of females.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

What do you think of all this lobbying that's been happening right now around the table? What do you think the average Canadian woman like you would—

[Doraine Wachniak]

I can't compete against these women. I can't compete against the four first ones here. They've had a lot of backing, they've had a lot of training, and they're very good. I don't know whether it's money. I don't know if they're all volunteers. I have no idea where their sources of income—

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

No, they're not volunteers.

[Doraine Wachniak]

Do you know what? Do you want to be fair? You bring in 800 women randomly selected across this country to this table to sit down to see what women are talking about. I'm talking about being at a parent council meeting, because I'm interested in my school. I'm talking about whether my car tire is going to be flat tomorrow morning when I want to drive to work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Ms. Wachniak.

The next questioner is Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I have some questions. I'd like to address my first one to Ms. Williams.

You say that you have pay equity. Are you aware of women who may not enjoy that level of economic autonomy? In other words, do you believe that aboriginal women, visible minority women, disabled women enjoy the same economic advantages as you do?

[Gladys Hayward Williams]

Equal pay, male or female, in my profession...we are paid according to a scale that does not reflect gender. That's correct.