Status of Women Committee on March 1st, 2007

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

I would like to call the meeting to order today. I want to welcome our guests. We're very pleased that you could be here today.

This is a very important time where we have a chance to listen to our guests and a chance to ask questions of our guests. So before we start, I would ask that each one of you, starting with Monique, introduce yourselves and state which department you are from.

Thank you.

[Monique Boudrias, Executive Vice-President, Public Service Human Resources Management Agency of Canada]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm Monique Boudrias and I'm the executive vice-president for the Public Service Human Resources Management Agency. I have some opening remarks. Do you want me to go through them now?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

No. What we're going to do is have everyone introduce themselves, and then we're going to start with Kathy O'Hara, because I have a list of presenters and the order in which they would like to speak.

So thank you, Monique, for introducing yourself.

The next one?

[Linda Lizotte-MacPherson, Associate Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm Linda Lizotte-MacPherson, associate secretary with the Treasury Board.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you, and welcome.

Kathy.

[Kathy O'Hara, Senior Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Human Resources and Social Development]

Kathy O'Hara, senior associate deputy minister at Human Resources and Social Development.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

I'm glad to have you here today.

[Donna Miller, Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Justice]

Donna Miller, associate deputy minister of Justice Canada.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Happy to have you here as well, Donna. Thank you.

[Janet Siddall, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration]

I'm Janet Siddall, the associate assistant deputy minister at Citizenship and Immigration.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Great. We have a powerful group of women sitting in front of us today and we can hardly wait to hear you report.

What we'll do is each presenter will have five minutes, and at the end of that time we will open it for questions. We will do what we usually do, having our first round one, round two, round three, and we'll have seven-minute questions and answers, as we usually do.

But to start off, could each of you, starting with Kathy, give a five-minute presentation, please?

Thank you.

[Kathy O'Hara]

Good afternoon.

Thank you for inviting me to speak about the measures our department is taking to ensure that gender-based analysis is applied to our policies and programs. We believe that solid analysis on a wide range of issues, including gender, is key to fulfilling our departmental mandate. As you know, it's a mandate that focuses on Canadians' social and economic well-being and has a very broad impact on Canadians' lives. So given that broad mandate, we realize that gender-based analysis is an integral part of our policy work.

I know that before you prepared your report for 2005, you actually heard from representatives of two departments, Human Resources and Social Development and Skills Development. The representatives of those departments at that time described how the two departments address the issue of gender-based analysis.

Each had a slightly different approach. For example, Social Development Canada focussed on its advisors network and training tools. Human Resources and Skills Development Canada emphasized the responsibility of managers to ensure that GBA was fully addressed in the course of policy and program development, and provided a challenge function through its policy committees.

Then, as you know, in February 2006 the new department of Human Resources and Social Development was announced and was created. Since then the department has worked on integrating its approach, obviously, to gender-based analysis.

Overall, we take an integrated approach to gender-based analysis. We hold all managers responsible for analysis within their mandates. Gender-based analysis is one of the important lenses that they're held responsible for.

In addition to that accountability for each manager, at each manager's level, challenge functions are built into the process. We have policy committees at the DG and ADM levels, and I will talk a little bit more on how that process works.

In addition to that approach, we have a unit of three FTEs in the international social policy and diversity division of the strategic policy branch in our department, and that unit is mandated to coordinate learning events, tools, and other resources to assist employees in performing gender analysis. That's the legacy of the gender analysis and policy division that had been in the old social development department.

During our transition period into the new department, this unit has focused its efforts on meeting interdepartmental reporting requirements such as contributing to Canada's report on our implementation of the UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, but as the new department is coming into place, this unit is going to spend more of its time and resources on learning events and tools.

In particular, the predecessor to the Department of Social Development Canada had a lot of success with what they called “learning events”. For example, just before the new department was created in January 2006, a gender-based analysis training session was held. It was actually open to employees of both of the former departments. It was basically a course that used case studies and exercises to demonstrate the process of incorporating gender and other diversity considerations at the various stages of the policy development process. About 25 people attended, and the evaluations show that it was actually quite a useful session. People learned a lot about it and got the tools they need to be able to take the integrated approach to gender-based analysis.

So this is the kind of thing we think we need to do more of, given that we've taken an integrated approach to gender-based analysis.

That's generally how we approach gender-based analysis. What I'd like to do fairly quickly, if I can, is address specifically the recommendations in your report to demonstrate how we have responded to those recommendations. There was a recommendation with respect to having a designated responsibility centre for gender-based analysis in the department, and while I've said that each manager is responsible for gender-based analysis, we have placed the gender-based unit in the branch. It's called our strategic policy branch. So it's the assistant deputy minister of strategic policy who has particular responsibility for coordinating that unit, making sure the tools and resources are provided.

There was a recommendation with respect to participation in the interdepartmental committee on gender-based analysis. We are a member. Originally, it was in two departments. Now the one department is a member of that committee and participates actively.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

You're going to the end of your time, if you could wrap up, Kathy, please.

[Kathy O'Hara]

I'll quickly do that.

I just want to make sure I touch upon the challenge function.

So we take this integrated approach to gender-based analysis, but then each policy or program proposal first goes through a DG-level committee, and it gets challenged with respect to a whole range of issues, including gender. That then happens at the ADM level, and then we move up to a committee that's chaired by the deputies.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you so much.

Please keep in mind, too, that during the Q and A period, when you're asked questions, if you feel there's a point you want to get across, you can integrate that into your answer.

Donna Miller, associate deputy minister, please.

[Donna Miller]

Madam Chair, with your approval, rather than taking the time of the committee to read my entire statement, which has been submitted to the committee, perhaps it might be more beneficial if I were to highlight the key points of my statement for a few minutes.

In Justice Canada, we have a fully integrated model of gender-based analysis. We think this model works well, mainly for a couple of reasons. First, it's built upon the premise that GBA must be everybody's concern, that you cannot build sound analysis unless everyone is sensitized to gender and diversity issues across the department and the requirement to be sensitive is owned by everybody, not just a few. This way, we think that GBA becomes a routine and substantive consideration in all the work we do.

Second, the fully integrated model works because of the extensive building blocks we put in place before we moved to an integrated model. This included 15 years spent developing our expertise and during which time we instituted a special gender and diversity unit, as well as delivered extensive training to our employees. Without these extensive building blocks in the formative years, our fully integrated model would have been almost impossible to implement. We needed this ground work to be done—to evolve as an organization in our sensitivity, in other words—in order for the fully integrated model to function successfully.

My statement contains a few examples of how our integrated GBA justice policy works in practice. I'll highlight two of them.

One example concerns former Bill C-2, on the protection of children and other vulnerable persons. That legislation, you'll recall, contained many important measures, but one of the areas where GBA was front and centre was on the changes to facilitate the receipt of testimony by vulnerable victim witnesses in specific types of offences like spousal abuse, like sexual assault, where women are the primary victims. GBA played an integral role in the development of our better policy in those areas.

Another example concerns the work of the Policy Centre for Victim Issues, which is part of our policy division in the department and which provides the victim lens for all criminal law reform and criminal justice policy development. Again, GBA is an integral part of the work done by this group, where the needs of women as victims are well documented.

Finally, to have a successful, integrated GBA model, one must have employees who are sensitized to these issues. Training helps, and we've done a lot of this over the years, but changing demographics have played a very key role in supporting our goals on GBA.

First, we are witnessing a new generation that views the world globally and conducts integrated comprehensive analysis as a matter of course and with much practicality. Just as importantly, the roles and representation of women in the Department have changed considerably. There are more women than men in the Department and there are now more women lawyers and women executives than there are men lawyers or men executives. Even at the Governing Council table—our most senior executive body chaired by the Deputy Minister—women now occupy one half of all positions. This shift in demographics has facilitated the success of the integrated GBA model.

Of course, there's always room for improvement. We have new things to learn. We continue to evaluate ourselves, we assess whether we have it right, but we feel we're well positioned to face any challenges.

Thank you for your time and the opportunity to appear before you today. I'd be pleased to answer any questions.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you for that very insightful presentation.

Now we will go to Janet Siddall, the associate assistant deputy minister of operations.

[Janet Siddall]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair and honourable members. Thank you for this opportunity to provide you with an update on the progress we have been making with gender-based analysis in CIC since we last appeared before this committee.

May I draw your attention to the fact that we do have a handout for you, which I will be making reference to in my remarks.

As you know, CIC is the only federal department required by law to analyze and report to Parliament on gender-based impacts of our policies and programs, and this legislative requirement is quite unprecedented in federal statutes. We certainly take this requirement very seriously at CIC. Our work in response to this opportunity is ongoing, and as I will outline further, we have continued to make progress since we last appeared before the committee.

As you may recall, the function of gender-based analysis was first established in 2000 in Citizenship and Immigration. In 2005, we centralized this responsibility in a gender-based analysis unit within our strategic policy branch, and at the same time we launched our five-year strategic plan. In addition to conducting this analysis on behalf of the department, the unit also provides the tools, training, and support necessary to maintain and indeed strengthen our capacity for gender-based analysis throughout the department.

Establishing the unit was a great start, but we realized that we needed to do more and do things a bit differently. So last spring, following a reorganization in our department, we decided to move the gender-based analysis unit to provide greater opportunities to strengthen and integrate it into all existing departmental planning and reporting processes. The responsibility now falls under the corporate planning and reporting group, and their responsibilities now include providing guidance, planning, reporting, and capacity building for gender-based analysis.

The gender-based analysis is now carried out at the branch level, where most of our department's policy and program work occurs. We are looking forward to implementing gender-based analysis throughout the department and finding ways to make it part of our day-to-day business at CIC. For example, gender issues are included as part of the general discussions taking place in our policy committee, a new decision-making forum to discuss departmental policy directions for CIC.

As I have mentioned, the analysis is taking place at the branch level. Our five policy branches in the strategic and program policy sector have gender-based analysis plans and are in the process of updating them on an annual basis. These plans have resulted in tangible results, some of which were outlined in the annual report to Parliament on immigration, which was tabled in Parliament on October 31, and we've included it in your information package.

I am pleased to report that the results of gender-based analysis were included in our annual report of 2006 for the first time. For example, possible gender and diversity issues were analyzed by us in 2006 when we responded to the plight of some 800 Karen refugees who were going to be resettled from Thailand. The analysis allowed us to address and mitigate any issues that may arise during their settlement process.

Further analysis is under way to help us work more effectively with the sponsoring groups and service providers to ensure that these new arrivals to Canada receive effective support targeted to their individual needs.

A second example: we have used gender-based analysis to help us deal more effectively with the issue of human trafficking victims, most of whom are women. We recognize that women who are victims of this crime have unique protection needs. Instructions have been sent to all of our officers advising them on appropriate interview techniques and the importance of informing victims about counselling and other resources available to them as traumatized victims of crime.

To further assist the victims of trafficking, we have instituted a temporary resident permit for 120 days to ensure that victims have protection and legal status in Canada. This status also affords victims access to medical and psychological services as required to deal with their experiences.

This 120-day period of reflection gives victims the time they need to assess how they would like to move forward with their lives, including the choice of whether or not to assist with any prosecution of their trafficker. For those who wish to remain permanently in Canada, CIC provides them with the information required as to how to proceed. In addition to the initiatives outlined in the annual report, you can find other examples of GBA taking place in our department.

We continue to use gender-based data in our Facts and Figures publication, which provides information on new permanent residents in Canada, as well as temporary residents entering Canada to work or study.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Janet, we're getting close to the end now. If you could just quickly wrap up, I'd appreciate it.

[Janet Siddall]

Sure.

CIC is proud of the accomplishments that we've made to date, but we realize there is much more work to be done. We are happy to be here to provide you with further information on some of the steps we're planning to take.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you very much, and we look forward to the question period time.

I would ask Linda Lizotte-MacPherson, the associate secretary of the Treasury Board Secretariat, to present next.

[Linda Lizotte-MacPherson]

Thank you for the invitation to appear before your committee on the Treasury Board Secretariat's progress in the area of gender-based analysis.

I am pleased to have with me Monique Boudrias from the Public Service Human Resources Management Agency of Canada. As part of the Treasury Board portfolio, the agency is responsible for a number of human resources policies, including the employment equity policy.

Also with me is Jeanne Flemming, assistant secretary and the TBS gender-based analysis champion; as well as Hélène Laurendeau, assistant secretary of our labour relations and compensation operations branch.

Today I'd like to update you on the progress we have made in implementing our commitments on gender-based analysis. The committee may also be interested in some of our recent findings on the closing of the gender wage gap, and this is actually very good news.

I'll begin with our commitments as set out in the government's response to your committee's report, “Gender-Based Analysis: Building Blocks for Success”. In this document, the secretariat laid out four areas that we were committed to working on.

First, training staff on the use of gender-based analysis within the context of our mandate.

Second, screening the Treasury Board management policies to ensure that there are no unintended gender impacts.

The third is using the management, resources, and results structure policy, also known as the MRRS policy, which requires departments to use performance information in the management of their programs, including those with gender-specific objectives.

Our fourth commitment was ensuring that the management accountability framework, or MAF for short, makes reference to assessing analytical capacity and practices in departments.

Madam Chair, TBS is committed to gender equality. I think our accomplishments speak to that commitment.

Before I go into detail, I'd like to quickly outline the division of roles and responsibilities between departments, the Privy Council Office, and Treasury Board in respect to this matter.

Departments are responsible for the application of gender-based analysis and for the inclusion of gender considerations in their policies and programs.

The Privy Council Office oversees and supports the process of policy-making government-wide, specifically the considerations that have to be applied consistently in the development of public policy. Our role at TBS is to ensure value for money in government programs and oversight in the management functions. Once programs are approved by cabinet, we perform a challenge function on the implementation of these programs.

Now, let me review our accomplishments, beginning with our commitment to training.

We've organized our training into two different streams, based on our two main responsibilities. The first role is really the challenge function that we perform on the Treasury Board submissions we receive from departments. The second is our management policy development and oversight role.

This summer, we ran a pilot project on gender-based analysis for the analysts who perform the challenge function. We would like to thank Status of Women Canada for sharing its valuable tools, expertise and support in that area. They made it possible to ensure the success of this pilot project. We are now developing additional training events based on the results of the pilot session, and are incorporating this training into our annual cycle.

The second group, those responsible for renewing and reviewing the management policies, receive training at the outset of the policy renewal initiative, and in fact we'll be conducting two training sessions specifically on gender-based analysis later this month.

Our second commitment was to ensure that management policies do not include any unintended consequences from a gender perspective. In the federal accountability action plan, the government committed to reviewing and renewing the entire suite of management policies to make sure that accountabilities and responsibilities are clear.

In addition to the training that I just mentioned, we've also put in place tools and a rigorous process to make sure that our policies don't include unintended gender consequences. In each policy we actually go through a very rigorous process and analyze them.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Madam, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but your time has run out. Could you just wrap up?

[Linda Lizotte-MacPherson]

Okay.

We have a tool we use that specifically asks if there is a potential impact, and if there is, there has to be a thorough analysis done. We also have a broad manage-the-MRRS policy that really requires the department to lay out the specific performance indicators.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you very much. I'm sorry to interrupt you. We have to keep within a time constraint. Thank you for that very insightful presentation. I'm sure that members around the table will be anxious to ask you questions, at which time you can also fill in some factual information.

I would like now to call on Monique Boudrias for her presentation. Monique is the executive vice-president of the Public Service Human Resources Management Agency.

[Monique Boudrias]

Thank you, Madam Chair. It is a pleasure for me to be here this afternoon as a representative of the Treasury Board portfolio.

When I last spoke to this committee in March of 2005, I provided an overview of the significant work we do in support of gender equality. Today I would like to provide you with a bit of a progress report and tell you how we are integrating gender equality analysis and gender issues into our ongoing work.

The Public Service Human Resources Management Agency has a lead role for implementing the government human resources modernization and renewal agenda.

The Agency plays a leadership role in a variety of ways. One of its critical tasks, under the Employment Equity Act, is to ensure that Canada's Public Service is both representative and inclusive. Thus, women's issues are important to us not only because the Act requires that we pay attention to them, but also because they are a key component of our institutional values.

Two of those values, equality and equity, are widely integrated across the Public Service and ensure optimal use of the talents and skills of Canadians, as well as the elimination of barriers to women's full participation in the Public Service of Canada and federal work places.

As part of the Treasury Board portfolio, we work in close collaboration with the Treasury Board Secretariat to strengthen and renew the policy framework of the government. Consequently, our HR policy analysts have the same opportunity to follow the courses on gender-based analysis.

In support of this work and as a reflection of our lead responsibility for HR management in the public service, we are undertaking an exhaustive consultative process with key stakeholders, including unions, to modernize our HR policies. The consultation process helps to ensure that a diversity of perspectives and concerns, including gender equality, are brought to bear on the development of new and revised policies.

In the same vein, the development of new classification standards for the public service of Canada, as well as analysis and gender-related issues are key concerns for us. We want to ensure that the work carried out by both men and women is valued equally. Our efforts to modernize the classification system stem directly from that value.

As we seek to modernize the Public Service of Canada, and as we strive to sustain the delivery of excellent services to Canadians, we are also strengthening our accountability frameworks and incorporating gender analysis. Our efforts are coordinated with those of the Treasury Board Secretariat, under the management accountability framework, which has specific components addressing human resource management as well as values and ethics.

We have developed the people component of the management accountability framework, which identifies seven strategic outcomes. Each outcome has multiple indicators that enable us to assess, monitor, and take into account the overall health of human resource management in the public service.

We are now in the process of collecting and analyzing departmental information from that exercise, and we will be using it to assist departments in improving, among other things, their performance with respect to employment equity and achievement of equity-based goals. We will do this by providing advice, sharing information and best practices, and having workshops and information sessions.

Additionally, we have strengthened our research capacity to ensure that we can improve not only human resource management practices but also human resource planning in the public service, by facilitating the identification of current and future needs for human resource management. Such analysis will continue to include a significant gender dimension as we seek to capitalize on higher female participation rates in our labour force and as we respond to challenges in the areas of recruitment, retention, demands for alternative working arrangements, learning, and career progression of our employees, including persons in all the employment equity groups.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

I want to thank you very much for your presentation, Ms. Boudrias. That was very well done. We look forward to the question and answer period.

Before we get to that, we were supposed to have representation today from the Department of Finance. Unfortunately, Rob Wright, the Deputy Minister of Finance, has been advised of a last-minute meeting with the minister. He said he'd be very pleased to appear at a later time before the committee, and he has been so kind as to provide me with some speaking notes, but he did not have time to have them translated, so those will be translated and distributed to the committee as well.

Actually, documents from the Department of Finance--I've been advised--are available in both languages. It's the Treasury Board document that needs to be translated still, so you'll get that at a later date. Sorry about that. We'll make sure the committee is provided with all these documents.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Do we get that right now? I think it would affect our questions.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

They have been distributed already, and you should have them in front of you.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Could the Department of Finance not find somebody to send?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

This was right at the last minute, so the Deputy Minister of Finance--

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

That's the whole point.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Excuse me. Order, please.

The Deputy Minister of Finance will appear before the committee at a later date. This was unavoidable.

Now I would like to go into the question period. To start, the questioners have the question and answer period--

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

I wonder, Madam Chair, if I could just add, for the benefit of Dr. Bennett, that I think this committee made it clear that we wanted deputy ministers or assistant deputy ministers, and that's perhaps why there wasn't someone else sent in his place.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you, Ms. Davidson.

Now if we're all ready, we will proceed to the question and answer period. We will have seven minutes per questioner, starting with Ms. Minna, please.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Yes, it is unfortunate that the representative from Finance isn't here, because it's actually at the core of a lot of what happened, especially with budget time.

I thank all of the deputy ministers who have come today, because this is very important.

My first question actually had to do with Finance, but I think some of the questions I can ask, and maybe the relationship to Finance is also here, because essentially you need to deal with that.

My first question was on the kind of financial resources you have and your departments receive. We don't know about other departments. Some of you are doing some good work with respect to maintaining and training in this area.

Just very briefly, I have a series of questions, if you wouldn't mind giving me some quick answers, if you could, in terms of your financial resources dedicated to this area. What resources are you given or have you put aside?

The other question is. this. At budget time, does the Department of Finance expect whatever proposals go from your departments into the budget to have a GB analysis done before they go into the budget process, rather than after the fact?

[Kathy O'Hara]

We have, as I mentioned in my comments, a unit of three FTEs dedicated to that. Unfortunately, I can't tell you what the operating budget is, because that's where some of the training is, but I could get you that information.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

That would be helpful.

Go ahead, just very briefly.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Ms. Miller.

[Donna Miller]

Sorry, I wasn't sure who your question was directed to.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

It was to all four or five of you, I guess—very quickly.

[Donna Miller]

Thank you.

In order to answer that question, I need to refer back to my remarks about how in the justice department we have very much an integrated GBA, so it's not part of one particular section of our department. It's not possible to really answer the honourable member's question directly, because GBA is part and parcel of everyone's role in the Department of Justice.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Is that the same for all departments in terms of the integrated process?

[A voice]

Yes.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Okay. What about the requirements from the Department of Finance at budget time? When your various departments put forward budget proposals, do you need to have done your analysis before it goes into the budget process to the Department of Finance?

[Janet Siddall]

Certainly for CIC, yes, because it's also part of our legislated requirement. It doesn't get out the door unless it has had the gender-based analysis.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Does anyone else wish to comment? Just nod yes or no so I can move on.

[Kathy O'Hara]

As I said in my comments, we do it for every policy we work on.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Okay.

[Linda Lizotte-MacPherson]

That would be the same for us as well in all of our management policies. It's an integrated part of it. Similarly, on the training side, it's now integrated into our annual training process, so we don't have a separate budget. It's integrated with training as well.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

So all policies that go to the Department of Finance from your various ministries go through that process first.

[Linda Lizotte-MacPherson]

Well, in our case, management policies would go to Treasury Board ministers for approval, and yes, that analysis would be done in advance of that. They would never go to Treasury Board without that analysis and understanding of potential impact.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Okay.

As to my other question, there was a task force commissioned by the previous government, and the report was made in December 2005. One of the recommendations it made...and the reason for the task force at the time was because of the difficulty of getting GBA across the whole of the government. I understand in your departments there are some departments that are doing better than others. At that time, there was talk about legislation, and the report does recommend and it has guidelines for a possible bill.

I wonder if any of you have read that and whether you might tell me what you think of that particular recommendation and whether or not we need a bill, not with respect to your departments but maybe.... Maybe it's not a fair question. Just tell me what you think of that recommendation and how it's structured.

I'm thinking that the departments we have here are probably the ones that are more in tune with the GBA as opposed to some others.

[Donna Miller]

I think there are different ways of approaching gender-based analysis. Certainly what we would say is, whichever way is chosen, if it's legislated or if it's part and parcel of what we do, which is how we function in the Department of Justice, we think the focus has to be on outcomes. In other words, it's about whether we achieve the priorities, the outcomes that we're looking for. GBA is an essential tool to achieve our outcomes.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Would you see legislation helping us get there faster in any way, not necessarily in your own department but across the whole of the government structures?

[Donna Miller]

Speaking for the Department of Justice, because GBA is so closely associated with charter and equality rights as well, it's part and parcel of the work we do. So, again, although we obviously would take any direction from the government, and if the government chooses to legislate GBA, so be it, it's so inherent in the work we do. I think the question I would pose is, how does it help us better achieve our outcomes?

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I see I'm running out of time already. All right. I guess this will be my final question then, until my next round, if I have another shot.

How closely do you work with Status of Women Canada? Do your departments work with Status of Women Canada with respect to this issue?

[Kathy O'Hara]

I suspect we all do in the sense that any time a policy proposal is submitted for cabinet consideration, all policy proposals go through fairly elaborate interdepartmental consultation processes. So Status of Women Canada is always a participant in that process. That's another layer, if I can call it that, of challenge function when proposals go forward.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I think Status of Women Canada was initially the lead department in terms of training. This may not be a fair question to ask you, but do you know if they are still working with other departments or with all departments to--

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Your time is up, Ms. Minna.

I'll let you answer that before we go to Madame Deschamps.

[Linda Lizotte-MacPherson]

I'm sorry, I didn't hear the question.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Okay. We'll leave that for now and pick it up later.

Madame Deschamps.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

To begin with, I would like to convey my greetings to all of you and thank you for answering our invitation and providing your testimony today.

Following up on the comments made by my colleague, who was saying earlier that the Standing Committee on the Status of Women recommended, in a 2005 report, that Status of Women Canada provide support to departments with gender-based analysis. Ms. MacPherson discussed that in her paper. She thanked Status of Women Canada for its cooperation. My question is addressed to the other departments that are represented here today. I would like to know whether Status of Women Canada is supporting them in their gender-based analysis.

[Monique Boudrias]

In our case, because the Human Resources Management Agency is an agency that provides internal services relating to the government's HR policies, our situation is somewhat different from that of my colleagues whose departments serve Canadians directly. So, working with the Treasury Board Secretariat, whose mandate is to carry out analysis, our employees have access to training courses developed in cooperation with Status of Women Canada. In our case, we work far more with the Human Rights Commission than we do with Status of Women Canada, because of our mandate as an employer inside the federal government.

[Donna Miller]

Speaking for Justice Canada, I can advise you that we have always had a strong partnership with Status of Women on gender issues. I think it's also important to position the Department of Justice insofar as the work we do. We do play a strong interdepartmental role, particularly given that in our legal services units in each department, we have lawyers who play a challenge function to ensure that where they are consulted, the policy is sound and the legal advice--for example, in charter equality--is factored into policy development.

So to answer the honourable member's question, yes, we have a strong partnership with Status of Women.

Secondly, Justice Canada itself has strong relationships across the whole of government of Canada in that we provide legal advice and we have lawyers in most, if not all, of the departments across government.

[Janet Siddall]

The CIC has worked very closely with Status of Women in developing our own capacity and our training. We believe we have our own internal capacity, but we continue to collaborate on training sessions and presentations with Status of Women and our other government departments.

[Kathy O'Hara]

It's the same for us. We work with Status of Women, but increasingly we are trying to build up our own expertise and our own tools. For example, I mentioned the case studies we use during training events. I think we have the capacity internally to work on those, and that's one thing we'd like to do.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Go ahead, Ms. Deschamps.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I would just like to make a comment. In 2005, the Canadian Feminist Alliance for International Action made public a study of the last 10 federal budgets conducted by economist Armine Yalnizyan, which clearly demonstrated that budget cuts have been made at the expense of women, and that the years of prosperity have not always benefited them.

I would like to know whether there has been any rebalancing of government actions in favour of women, particularly with respect to housing, employment insurance, child care and pay equity, with a view to addressing the problems they face.

[Kathy O'Hara]

I'm not familiar with the study you're referring to, so I'm not exactly sure what the author was referring to.

I think over the past few years, certainly with respect to our department, there have been improvements in the employment insurance system, for example, with respect to maternity and parental benefits. The government recently introduced the universal child care benefit, of which the primary beneficiaries are women. There have been improvements in the guaranteed income supplement. I think this committee has talked about this before, about how over two-thirds of the recipients of the guaranteed income supplement are women. So I'm not exactly sure what the author was referring to, but there have been some initiatives. I'm not sure what time periods she was referring to since then.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Madame Deschamps, you have another minute.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

As you know, cuts were announced on September 25 that also affected a number of other programs aimed at women. I would like to know whether, as part of the cuts announced on September 25, gender-based analysis has been affected.

[Linda Lizotte-MacPherson]

Actually, I just wanted to respond to the previous question you had about some of the changes we've seen inside the core public administration, as an employer. What our research has found is that over the past 15 years, the gender wage gap itself has actually shrunk by more than half. There is a short deck, a statistical presentation, that we will share with the committee, highlighting some of the really significant progress. So I think we've made good progress.

We've also made headway in addition to reducing the gender wage gap in the public service by more than almost half. More encouraging, I think, is the fact that the gender wage gap in new recruits and staff under 35 is now 2%. So at this rate, I think we can expect to see even better results.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you. I'm sorry to cut you off. Our time for that member has just run out, but certainly you could continue in your other answers.

Mrs. Davidson.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much to our witnesses this afternoon. Certainly it's an extremely important issue, and one that, from your testimony, is not only important to us, but certainly important to you as well.

Actually, my question was going to be for Linda and it was going to be on the issue that Madame Deschamps has just introduced. Unfortunately, we don't have enough time to hear everybody's full testimony. Thank goodness we have the written submission before us, because I was very interested in what you had to say in here about your update on the recent findings for the gender wage gap.

I wonder if you could tell us a bit more about that. You go on to say that over 15 years, the wage gap has shrunk by more than half. Maybe you could just elaborate a bit more on what you were starting to say to Madame Deschamps, please.

[Linda Lizotte-MacPherson]

This is our research, and it was undertaken subsequent to a request by this committee.

We found that this wage gap reduction was really the result of a number of factors, including the effectiveness of our employment equity programs, pay equity settlements, the professionalization of work inside the core public administration, and the fact that more women have chosen to further their education. Our research is showing that the gap is continuing to decrease.

Perhaps I'll just share a few more statistics. We will certainly share them with you following the session, but I think they are of interest.

The gap over the past 15 years has narrowed by over 13%, and our wage gap is 11% versus 17% for the general population. One of the main reasons is that there are more women being hired into highly paid jobs. That's up from an average of 53% to 61%. So that is also very significant.

Almost twice as many women now work in management, scientific, professional, and administrative jobs than they did in 1991. This is largely because new recruits are coming in to higher-paying jobs.

Finally, for the under-35 age group, the wages of men and women are almost identical. There's just a 2% gap, so we're definitely moving in the right direction. This is an area where we need to continue to really monitor our progress, but I think we expect the wage gap to continue to narrow, particularly as the male-dominated baby boomers start to retire in greater numbers over the next few years. A lot of work is also being led by the agency around classification, modernization, and the new standards we've put in place to include safeguards to help mitigate potential gender bias downstream.

Those are just a few statistics that I think really speak to some of the progress we've made inside the core public administration.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you.

I want to go back to your second commitment, to ensure management policies do not include unintended consequences from the gender perspective.

Can you talk a bit more about that, please, and tell me how that's happening?

[Linda Lizotte-MacPherson]

We have launched an initiative to review all of our policies, and we're about halfway through that. We have provided training for the folks who are actually developing the policies, so when they are preparing them, they're sensitive to that and understand what it means from a policy perspective.

Once the policies are developed, we have an internal challenge function. But as part of the policy development process, we have a very strict template and series of questions that each of the policy centres has to answer, including one that specifically speaks to the potential impact on gender.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Have you had to alter many?

[Linda Lizotte-MacPherson]

So far, 27 new policies have been updated or approved. We've altered some, but there has not been an impact from a gender perspective. But those are related more to financial management, internal audit, and so forth.

We're now getting into the human resources ones, and that's where we think there will likely be an impact, so we're watching them very closely. Some of that work is being led by my colleague from the agency as well.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Is there a timeframe on that?

[Linda Lizotte-MacPherson]

We're targeting to have the policies renewed and updated over the next 18 months.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

You have another minute.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Donna, you said that GBA is inherent in everything you do, and you're not really sure whether legislation would speed things up because it's already there.

Is that the case in all of these departments? I think it is, from what I've heard from everything. Do you know of other areas that we need to be looking at, or is that a fair question?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

You've got 30 seconds to answer that.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

It may not be fair to ask you that, I don't know, but as women involved with GBA and so on, we need to know if there are other areas.

[Donna Miller]

I'm not aware of any areas specifically. I'm speaking, of course, only for our department, but I'm not aware of anything.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you very much.

Mrs. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you for all of this. It's certainly appreciated.

I'm wondering, and I'm building on my colleague's question, has there been a gender-based analysis of the cuts from last September 2006 on the programs, not on your department specifically but on the programs? We know that literacy, Status of Women Canada, court challenges, the Law Commission of Canada, all were affected, among many. Has there been an analysis of the impact of those cuts?

[Linda Lizotte-MacPherson]

In terms of the reductions, I think there were some very clear criteria that the government set out to really assess whether or not a particular program should be cut.

You'll recall in the budget the government promised to review all programs to make sure that every taxpayer dollar was spent to achieve results and to provide value for money. The funding was either reduced or eliminated for programs where there were unused funds because of lower take-up of programs or because objectives were achieved through other programs.

The second reason could be if they did not provide good value for money. The third is if those programs could be delivered more efficiently by streamlining or consolidating, and, finally, if they were not meeting the priority of Canadians. So those were essentially the four main criteria that were set out and that really formed the basis of what was brought forward.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay. Do we know the impact, though, of all of that? Has there been any analysis of the impact it's had on communities, or has that not been pursued?

[Linda Lizotte-MacPherson]

Not from an overall global perspective. Presumably, as departments were contemplating where the reductions were going to be, that would have been one of the factors that was considered. But, as I said, those were the four criteria. Those were the really primary lenses that were used.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Ms. O'Hara, you talked in your brief about your department using its efforts to look at the CEDAW recommendations, the implementation of CEDAW. There's been a great deal of concern of late, and we've heard it from a number of women's groups, about Canada's failure to meet its obligations.

I'm wondering, what's the current status of CEDAW? What's happening to that work? What did you discover in terms of that process of working towards implementation? Where are we, in other words?

[Kathy O'Hara]

Sorry, this is with respect to the international convention?

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Yes, the convention on the elimination of all forms of discrimination.

[Kathy O'Hara]

Right. I'm not well placed to speak to that directly because I wasn't involved, but if you like, I can get material to you on what exactly we provided in the process. I think, unfortunately, it was before I arrived in the department, so I don't know exactly, but I will undertake to find that information for you.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay. Is that work ongoing, do you know?

[Kathy O'Hara]

It's an ongoing process, but I would try to find exactly what we have provided for you.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

I'll address this third question to all of you.

Ms. Lizotte-MacPherson's presentation indicated that the Privy Council Office plays a critical role in terms of GBA, and essentially that role is to ensure that departments and agencies have used an appropriate GBA lens in terms of their consideration of what they do.

I wonder if you could please tell me if the Privy Council has asked your department to amend policies because of GBA, with specific examples. I think that question was alluded to, but I wondered if you could give more details.

[Kathy O'Hara]

I couldn't give you a specific example. I think what a number of us have said is that at various points in a policy development process there is what we are all calling a “challenge function” with respect to GBA.

The analyst is expected to use GBA when it gets to the next layer. The assistant deputy minister is asking questions about the impact, a broad range of impacts, including gender. The next step is you go out into an interdepartmental process--so other players--and in particular we have talked about the Status of Women asking those questions.

Then the central agencies are asking exactly the same kinds of questions, and even in the cabinet committee process you find the same kinds of questions.

Ideally, obviously, the issues have been addressed. That is the whole part of the challenge function at the interdepartmental process. If you haven't done your gender-based analysis, if you can't answer the questions about impacts, you go back to the drawing board and get the information and then include it in your policy proposals.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Do you feel there is adequate capacity to fulfil the GBA requirement or the implementation of GBA in your department at every step along the way?

[Donna Miller]

Speaking for Justice Canada, I'm quite confident that we have the capacity. I think we have the capacity very much at the ground level, and as Ms. O'Hara was explaining, in the development of any policies there are challenge points, both within departments and across departments, including PCO.

So I would say the capacity is high. In Justice it's partially because of the demographics that I mentioned. It's also partially because GBA is so closely linked with equality rights analysis. Of course, we have so much training and expertise developed in our department on equality rights analysis that this also exists to enhance, I think, sensitivity on GBA analysis.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you very much, Ms. Miller.

We are now going to go into round two. In round two we have five minutes each.

Ms. Minna.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I will be sharing my time with my colleagues, so I will try to be very quick. I have a couple of questions.

The first one is, when you do a GBA analysis in any of the departments, do you include racial or other factors--native women, aboriginal women--in order to be able to actually...? I know it's women, but women are different.

[Kathy O'Hara]

That's an interesting question, because just recently our ADM policy committee looked at this question of gender-based analysis, and that's exactly what came out of that discussion, what they called the intersection. You want to look at female aboriginals, females who are disabled, female immigrants.

There is almost always a kind of intersection of policies. So you are quite right. Gender-based analysis almost invariably includes--

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

So you are including those factors in your analysis now?

[Kathy O'Hara]

Absolutely, yes.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

On employment insurance, with respect to women, I know there was an analysis done showing that the changes to the act in 1996 were having a negative impact on women disproportionately to men. I remember it was the first report that came out. Is that still the case, and do you know if there is any further analysis done with respect to the EI changes of 1996 to women nowadays?

[Kathy O'Hara]

I would have to follow up on that. As you know, the EI Commission produces annual monitoring reports. I must admit I have not looked at the last one, but they produce a report every year on the impact.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Could you let us know?

[Kathy O'Hara]

I will provide the last year's report.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I'd appreciate that.

My last question, very quickly, is do you collect this segregated data for your information, all of you?

[Janet Siddall]

Certainly CIC does. In your package, in that CD-ROM there is quite an extensive breakdown of segregated data.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

And the others, you don't?

[Donna Miller]

Certainly in Justice we recognize the intersection of gender and gender through various lenses, but we do not track that data. It's part and parcel of our policy analysis, but we do not track it uniquely.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Okay. I gather others don't either?

[Linda Lizotte-MacPherson]

Our situation would be the same.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Those of you who don't, it would be nice if you did. I think it would be helpful.

I'd like to flip to my colleague, Ms. Bennett, please.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Thanks very much.

Madam Chair, I noticed in the notes from the Department of Finance that the department appointed a gender-based analysis champion. Could you find out if that person is in the room?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Well, if we could continue on with this questioning, is there anybody here from--well, the deputy minister was asked, Madam Bennett, to appear. He will appear in the future, and I think we should continue on with the questions. Do you have a question?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

My concern is that the budget will be tabled on March 19, and a lot of our questions are really based on whether there will be a gender analysis of that budget. This is something we've been pushing for, for a long time. I was just wondering if there was somebody from the Department of Finance in the room who would come to the table.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Ms. Bennett, what we asked for was the deputy ministers, so we can look forward to having--perhaps at the very next meeting I'll see if the deputy minister can be there, because there will be time then, when we get back on Tuesday. I don't think it's fair or planned to bring somebody else in. I'm not aware of anybody here able to step up to the plate. We did ask for a deputy minister.

You have one minute left. Did you have a question?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

We would like to know on this side if there is somebody in the room from the Department of Finance who we could call to the table.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

I think that's an unfair--because we asked for the deputy ministers. I don't believe--

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

But I see in his remarks that there is a gender-based analysis champion with the department, who I think would be an appropriate witness, if that person is in the room.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

We decided at the last meeting to call the--

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

But you don't actually decide. We actually have more numbers than you do.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Excuse me, you're out of order. The fact of the matter is that we had invited our guests, the deputy ministers, to come, and I don't think there's anyone else prepared at this point in time to do that.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Could we ask?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

We asked the deputy ministers to come--

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

No, no, could we ask if there is somebody from the Department of Finance in the room, at the time, right now, who could come to the table?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

I think that's very unfair, because we asked for the deputy ministers. Nobody else is prepared to come and sit here unless they have their notes--

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

I'm sorry, but if you're the gender-based analysis champion for a department, you should be able to answer a few questions.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

We asked the deputy ministers to come. The deputy minister will come--

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

I'm telling you that this is extraordinarily time-sensitive, Madam Chair. We are about to table a budget. For 10 years we have been asking for a budget to have a gender analysis on it before it comes to Parliament. So we would like to know, as a committee, will this 2007 budget have gender analysis done on it? In the remarks here there are a lot of subjectives: “wherever possible”--

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Order, Ms. Bennett. What we're going to do--

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

--“a pilot project”--

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

You can ask that question to the people sitting there at the table. Maybe someone cares to answer Ms. Bennett's question about that. Is there anybody here available?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

I would like to challenge the chair, based on the people on this side of the table, as to whether on not we could have somebody from the Department of Finance come to the table.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Ms. Bennett, we asked for the deputy. I'll check with the clerk, but I don't think it's appropriate.

Well, as I said, I did just check with the clerk as well, and she concurs that we have asked the deputy minister to appear at this time. It is inappropriate to ask--

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

It's the will of the committee, Madam Chair, to change our indication to the champion.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Madam Bennett, you're out of order. Can I please finish my sentence? What I was saying is that I will ask the clerk to ask the deputy minister to have a representative, if at all possible, at our very next meeting. Today it is inappropriate--

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

That's not until after the budget, Madam Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

--for a committee to call somebody out of the audience to present at the table.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

That's what they do. They love it.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

You have a very few seconds left. Do you have a question of the people sitting here?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

The next meeting is after the budget, Madam Chair. My understanding of the civil service in this country is that these are highly professional people who are very good at their jobs, who love what they do, and who are at any time prepared to answer questions of what's going on in the departments for which they are responsible. I don't understand why somebody from Finance didn't come, when this is a study about the role of central agencies and they are the key person. I don't--

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Do you have a question for the witnesses, Ms. Bennett? You have 80 seconds left.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Yes. I'd like to know from each of the witnesses whether they had anything in their budget submissions to the Department of Finance, under every department, about gender-based analysis.

Under Trudeau, people couldn't send something to cabinet, an MC, without a gender-based analysis, or to a budget. Is that now in place?

[Janet Siddall]

That's certainly in place with CIC.

[Donna Miller]

What I would say in terms of Justice Canada, honourable member, is that if gender is an issue that is part of a subject or an MC or in any policy proposal where gender is relevant, GBA charter analysis is an integral part of the submission that's done.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you.

Mr. Stanton.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Good afternoon to our panel, and thank you for your presentations and for sharing some time with us this afternoon.

As you explained the progress that has been made on a number of different fronts and we look at the lens through which gender analysis is accomplished, looking at policy and programs, you--I think it was Madam Lizotte-MacPherson--mentioned some outcomes. What are the measures you use to in fact see what those outcomes could be? You talked about the gender wage gap. I assume that relates to the public service. Because it relates to programs, do you look at measurements of the impacts in terms of society as well?

[Linda Lizotte-MacPherson]

That would not be part of our mandate. One of the other things we do look at is in terms of whether or not departments have sufficient policy capacity as part of that. We do the management accountability framework, or the MAF, assessment on an annual basis to really assess a department's management capacity.

There are 10 different evaluation key indicators, if you will, and one of the areas is really their overall policy development capacity and analytical skills, which would include things such as whether they factor in gender-based analysis, official languages, and so forth. That would be part of a consideration in one of our indicators.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Considering that the gender-based analysis culture is continuing to become more of a natural part of the policy development process, and as Dr. Bennett pointed out, this stretches back not just years but decades, what's in front of us as we move forward? You've already suggested, for example, that you're beginning to see that gender issues are starting to merge with an outlook at diversity in general. As we go forward and as these gaps continue to close, do you foresee a period of time where the notions of purely gender-based analysis will begin to blend into that broader base of just good practices and policy-making with respect to diversity? I put this particularly to our program people--Justice, Immigration, and HRSDC.

[Janet Siddall]

I would certainly say that I would agree with what you are saying. I think there are two ways certainly to move forward a process like gender-based analysis. You can have the hard controls like the legislation we have at CIC, but I think that equally important are what I would call the soft controls. I would say our commitment to values and ethics--certainly in CIC our commitment to employment equity and diversity--is a very important part, because we imbue that. We do a lot of training of all of our employees at all levels of the organization. The final goal is that this should be second nature, just part of the way we do business in Citizenship and Immigration.

[Donna Miller]

I would like to add to that from the viewpoint of Justice Canada. We think it's inherent in any sound policy analysis or legal analysis that there's a reflection on the social implications of any policy proposal. So often, of course, social implications speak to gender and to diversity issues, but it is very much part and parcel--an integral part--of our legal analysis and our policy analysis.

[Kathy O'Hara]

Perhaps I could just add to that. Donna talked about the number of female lawyers in the department. I was quite struck when I was preparing for my presentation. I wondered about our policy analysts, whether they're male or female. So what we did was we looked at the ES category, or the economist category, which comprises largely the people in the department who do the policy work. It reflected my gut instinct, which was that 55% of our ESs who are doing policy analysis are in fact women.

So this is another way of getting back to your question. I think it is just part of policy analysis. It's instinctive. When 55% of your policy advisers are women, they're inevitably going to be bringing those issues into play.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you very much.

Do I have any time, Madam Chair?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

You have two more minutes, Mr. Stanton.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I do?

I'm sorry, yes, Monique.

[Monique Boudrias]

I just want to say a few things about the employer, the Government of Canada. I think we are evolving from employment equity to management of diversity. Even though we may have a better representation of women, at one point, there are other family related issues that we have to look at. Interestingly enough, paternity leave and day care and taking care of the older members of the family, and so forth...it's coming to us. We also have a duty to accommodate for disabled people, but also for people who have other issues that are about religion, and so on. So we hope to move to that kind of diversity management so that the workplace is more conducive to all those kinds of diversity in the future.

The key stakeholders for us, obviously, are our unions. I must say that when we do consultations on our policies, they're there looking at them, and they have their own policy advisers within the unions. They're very, very careful at looking at what we do on women's issues and equity issues, and so on. So we take good care of their comments in terms of integrating that into our process.

[Linda Lizotte-MacPherson]

Madam Chair, the other thing with the increasing trend that we're seeing in terms of collective agreements is there is a shift. There is much more of a focus, in new clauses, for example, on allowing pregnant employees to come back on a graduated basis. So we're starting to see some very different kinds of clauses emerging, and I think we can expect to see more of that as we move forward.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I've run out of time now.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

I think you've run out of time, Mr. Stanton.

Thank you for your answers.

Ms. Faille.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Madam Chair, I do not often attend meetings of this committee, but I am pleased to be here in the company of representatives of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. My questions are probably addressed more to Ms. Siddall. I'll give the others a little rest.

Immigrant women constitute a large proportion of the female population, and I believe that number has been increasing over the years. They are an asset. Many of them are successful economically—very successful—and make a remarkable contribution to our economy, our community and political life, and human rights. We have only to look at the women in Quebec representing large union organizations or large women's organizations. I am thinking of the dynamism demonstrated by the Réseau des femmes d'affaires, as well as women who are members of the Association des femmes en finance du Québec

At the same time, there is one reality that affects immigrant women and refugees when they apply for immigrant status. I believe that Ms. Siddall is very much aware of the harm that can be caused by the Immigration Act, in terms of their equitable treatment and recognition as heads of family, as well as their particular circumstances when they are refugees. Often they are on welfare, which prevents them from being reunited with their children and their spouse.

There is also the matter of recent measures that were taken or imposed with a view to ensuring there is proof of family ties. I'm referring to DNA tests to prove the existence of a blood relationship, as well as a whole series of measures, including the points system used for candidate selection. I could list a number of other issues that affect women, particularly the wage gap in other countries. In Canada, we have seen that such a wage gap exists. We are making progress, but in many countries, the progress has not been as significant or noteworthy. I would like to know specifically what plan of action the Department of Citizenship and Immigration has put in place to remove the barriers faced by these women, and I also would like to know about both efforts and expenditures in that area.

[Janet Siddall]

I believe I have multiple questions.

In terms of the different streams of immigration that we have, we certainly did the gender-based analysis on our selection criteria for skilled workers. There is no indication that it is biased against women, and it's gender neutral.

For example, we give credit for the experiences of a spouse, whether male or female, and we also extended the work experience from 5 to 10 years, in recognition that women would take time out of the workplace to raise their families.

When it comes to our refugee selection, of course, we're looking at the most formidable groups, and our policy is to resettle the most vulnerable, including women and women at risk. This is now a disproportionate part of our program. What we are trying to do with the new settlement funding.... Over $300 million in the last budget will certainly assist in settlement programs for all newcomers to Canada. In fact, we are reporting an accountability mechanism indicating that 65% of our clients for language training, for example, are women. This will certainly benefit them.

You had other questions there, but I'll summarize it as that. We believe we make strong efforts to evaluate our policies and programs, family unification included, and make adjustments if we have to, wherever possible.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

In the documentation you provided, you say that you are currently reviewing the Citizenship Act. Are any concrete steps planned that will address the hardship caused to women?

[Janet Siddall]

Where issues have been raised with us, for example, in the documentation, we mentioned a review of the live-in caregiver program and the trafficking program. We are taking steps in working with the not-for-profit community and women's groups to look at those issues.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

It is written in black and white in the documentation you provided that you are currently reviewing the Citizenship Act. Is that still a current project? Will you take action to address the harm caused women under the Citizenship Act?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

I'm sorry, our time is up right now, and we have to go to Ms. Mathyssen.

Go ahead, Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

In a recent report--I was looking at this document--we had testimony from the Business and Professional Women of Canada. They talked very specifically about the growing gap in terms of men's and women's salaries, and that income gap has widened, actually, between men and women who are university graduates. I think it was something quite astounding: university graduates who are female are making something like 48% of what their male counterparts make. There was a reference to a report, Equality for Women: Beyond the Illusion. That was a 2005 report.

When we see this report and hear the testimony here and hear from others, like the Professional and Business Women, I'm wondering why there are these discrepancies, these contradictions. Is it because of things such as that women, by virtue of the fact that they have so many obligations outside of their jobs, don't perhaps work as many hours or can't go after the promotions that men would go after? Is that a possible explanation for the difference between what we're hearing here and what we heard from the Professional and Business Women? Has there been any analysis of that done?

[Kathy O'Hara]

I could maybe speak to some of that. I think you had some remarks from one of my colleagues at Human Resources and Social Development, Barbara Glover, who was a witness here and who I think spoke to this issue. My sense, from looking at some of her data, is that in many ways it depends on whether you're talking about full-time work or part-time work. The gap varies depending on that.

I think the age issue is quite interesting, and I think there was some data presented that for university graduates under 25 years of age who were working full-time, there in fact was virtually no gap between men's and women's wages for that group. So I think it's really important to sort of disaggregate it, if I can.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

So those women under 25 would likely be single women who probably weren't in that vice of trying to be all things to all people.

[Kathy O'Hara]

But they're therefore working full-time.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

With that in mind, this sort of skews the kind of information we're hearing here today, does it not? And does it really present an accurate picture of what is going on with women out in the larger community if we take those slices, rather than look at the larger population and the reality the larger population faces?

[Kathy O'Hara]

I guess one answer is the extent to which, in some cases, we know that women who are mothers of children, certainly under six, are choosing to work less than full-time because they want to do child care and childbearing as well as work.

I think that's, in a way, why it is important to disaggregate. We know that people are making different choices, so it's hard to generalize about a particular group without knowing that.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Yes, and perhaps they are not choosing at all. Perhaps they can't find child care or they're in this vice a lot of women have described of trying to do too much and bearing 60% of all work in society.

[Kathy O'Hara]

You mean people like the sandwich generation women. Yes, exactly.

[Linda Lizotte-MacPherson]

I might add to that, in terms of the report. Looking at the core public administration, the numbers that are included in the deck that was circulated include all employee types: casual, full-time, and part-time employees.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

Have I more time, Madam Chair?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

You have 33 seconds.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The 2005 report, Building Blocks for Success, from the Status of Women, said that in order to have real accountability mechanisms in GBA we needed advice from outside groups, from the equality-seeking organizations. I just wondered, have those organizations been included in this process? And if so, which ones? And what were they able to provide in terms of support, advice, and information?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Please answer very quickly, maybe in just a sentence or two, since our time is up. We have to go on to the next question.

[Donna Miller]

In terms of preparing for today, we did not consult with equality groups. The Department of Justice has a very strong working relationship with many NGOs, including equality-seeking groups. We view that kind of consultation as an essential part of good policy development.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you.

Ms. Grewal, you have five minutes.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all of you for your presentations.

I would like to know what impact gender-based analysis has on your departments in terms of human resources, financial costs, and implementation delays for legislation and policies.

[Janet Siddall]

We have all previously suggested, and it's certainly true for Citizenship and Immigration, that we have integrated the gender-based analysis throughout our policy and program areas. When we started up, we had dedicated resources, three full-time equivalents, but we have completed our training. I can't give you an exact figure, although we have at least one dedicated resource in the planning accountability part of the department to ensure that accountability is there.

In terms of the resources, because it's part of the policy development process, it does not cause delays in program or policy development because it's integrated into the whole consideration as policies are developed.

[Donna Miller]

Similarly with Justice Canada, when gender equality analysis first came into our department back in the 1980s and moving into the 1990s, we had a discrete section in our department whose role was to ensure that gender and diversity issues were considered across the whole of the department.

That is not the case today, as I mentioned in my remarks. We're now at a different phase in the understanding of diversity and gender assessments, such that it is fully integrated, part and parcel of everyone's responsibility.

[Kathy O'Hara]

That would be the same situation with our department. As with CIC, we have a small number of dedicated FTEs who are involved in learning events and training, about which I talked a little.

Basically gender-based analysis is integrated into our ongoing business, and it's part of every analyst's job.

[Linda Lizotte-MacPherson]

That would be our case, and we've integrated GBA in our policy and program centres in terms of their work.

In addition, as part of our expenditure analysis and compensation planning division, which is the team that prepared this particular report, we have a few people who are focused more on the gender-based analysis from a core public administration...to see how we're doing in terms of overall diversity, employment equity, and so forth. There's ongoing analysis that we do in the core administration.

[Monique Boudrias]

I would say that it's almost the same, and GBA is part of our capacity as policy analysts. In addition, we have a branch that looks at employment equity and the management of diversity. We have included together the four underrepresented groups: people with disabilities, natives, visible minorities, and women. We are looking at this as an overall approach to representation for the Government of Canada.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

What sort of training and support is provided by Status of Women Canada to other government departments?

[Monique Boudrias]

It's not part of my mandate, so I cannot answer your question.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Is there anyone else?

[Janet Siddall]

As I mentioned earlier, when we were developing our capacity initially, they were very helpful to us in developing our training. We feel we have a fairly mature training program now, so we're less involved with them on a day-to-day basis, but we certainly work with them in terms of any new initiatives, conferences, etc.

[Donna Miller]

That is precisely the position in Justice Canada.

[Kathy O'Hara]

And that would be the same....

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

We have 27 seconds left, so there's not much time.

Maybe what we'll say is thank you to all our presenters today for coming and giving your expertise and your very insightful comments. As a committee, we thank you for the time you have spent here today.

I would say, too, that I am going to suspend the meeting for just a couple of minutes to allow our guests to depart from the room, and I'll call the meeting back in two minutes.

The meeting is suspended briefly.

[Proceedings continue in camera]