Status of Women Committee on April 17th, 2007

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

I'd like to call the meeting to order.

We have before us the Deputy Minister of Finance, Mr. Robert Wright. His speaking notes have been distributed to everyone. If you haven't received them, just indicate that you haven't and you will receive them. The deputy minister is the last of the four deputy ministers we had invited to discuss GBA.

We generally have 10 minutes of presentation. We are going on until 4:30, and then we will start our committee business.

Mr. Wright, the floor is yours.

[Robert Wright, Deputy Minister, Department of Finance]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'm pleased to be here.

I'm very pleased to be here with you as part of this discussion. It's important for your committee, but it is also important for the Department of Finance. First of all, I want to express my regrets.

I'm terribly sorry that I wasn't able to make the last meeting with four of my distinguished colleagues to talk about the government-wide approach to gender-based analysis, but I'm very pleased that you took the time for me to have a chance to come back. As I think we explained, I had an urgent pre-budget meeting with my minister on a matter of great importance, so I could not avoid that.

I've handed out my speaking notes, so I will not walk through them in detail. I'd simply note that they flag a few areas. First, they describe the overall mandate of the department and where we've focused our efforts to date on gender-based analysis. Second, they highlight again some of the progress we've made, and then end off with some of the next steps we're planning to take in the department and in collaboration with our colleagues in the rest of government.

First, I think people know that the Department of Finance has several roles. One, we act as a central agency, rather like the Privy Council Office

and the Treasury Board. As an

central agency, we have a view in assessing the work of other departments as they progress through the cabinet committee systems, and in fact through budget preparations.

Then secondly, we have a whole series of programs we operate ourselves, of either a macroeconomic or framework policy nature, or structural policies that the Department of Finance manages. Typically, the broad macroeconomic framework policies are gender-neutral in enhancing overall economic prospects within Canada. We have focused our effort on a gender-based analysis of the structural areas.

Particularly we started, as we suggested earlier to this committee, on our tax policy initiatives, which have lent themselves well to gender-based analysis. The department has been conducting gender-based analysis for a number of years, and we have delivered on all the commitments we made to this standing committee's report, “Building Blocks for Success”.

I'm very pleased to have with me today Mireille Éthier, who is the senior chief for federal/provincial taxation within our tax policy branch. She supports the department's background of leadership and liaison on status of women issues. We've also appointed a champion amongst my executive committee, the general director for our tax policy branch, Serge Nadeau, and most recently appointed Louise Levonian, also at an ADM-level position, to champion the gender-based analysis within our organization.

Secondly, we had agreed to conduct pilot projects to train analysts in gender-based analysis, and we have done that. We had a full-day session within the tax policy branch.

Finally, there was an encouragement that the minister continue to have outreach with women's groups in pre-budget consultations, and of course the minister has done that this year.

So we think we've made some very good strides within the Department of Finance, and we see as next steps—again, in the representations made to you, Madam Chair, by the Honourable Bev Oda.... In terms of next steps, we've committed to list our best practices on our website for broader dissemination of ideas within our department and the broader government.

We've offered and we are offering training to other branches. I think we've built up a level of expertise within our tax policy branch. We're now going to be moving into other branches and we're setting up a training program to do that. We're also setting up a training program for all new staff, to sensitize them to our experience and the possible growth of gender-based analysis. That will be up and coming in our new curriculum for new staff in the department soon.

And we've committed to report progress on gender-based analysis in our annual departmental performance report.

I would just close by noting that in this last budget process we provided a gender-based assessment of over 90% of the ideas leading up to the budget that the minister considered for inclusion in the budget. The depth of that analysis is varied. I think it's very strong in particular on the personal income tax side, where we've been able to quantify results and give some good advice to our minister in making those judgments. What we're doing now is broadening that support to other branches. I think, though, we've made some very good progress in the last several years.

Again in the absence of my colleagues from other departments, we look forward to working with our colleagues in the rest of government on further progress.

Those are my opening remarks. Merci pour votre patience, madame.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you, Mr. Wright.

We will start off with a question round. The first round will go for seven minutes, with Ms. Minna.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for coming, Mr. Wright and Ms. Éthier.

You mentioned tax policy initiatives being put through a gender-based analysis of how taxes will impact upon people, so I need to ask you some questions.

Was the pension splitting that was in the recent budget put to a gender-based analysis before it was put forward? What did it show concerning men versus women, and specifically single women, in this country?

[Robert Wright]

Well, it's gender neutral. It affects families.

I have to say that, as you may recall, Ms. Minna, the commitment to pension splitting came out on October 31 as part of the minister's tax fairness plan, not as part of the budget, so there was not the same sort of analysis for budget preparation at that time. But we did do an analysis of it when it came to implementation in our budget and saw it as neutral in terms of balancing income.

The highest portion of pension income is in the men's side of that account, but the splitting certainly enhanced family income support, which was—

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I don't understand. I have to say I found that really disappointing. I do not understand how you can say that this is a neutral kind of analysis when, first of all, the private pension splitting—this is pensionable income that is being split—impacts and benefits the higher-income more and not modest-income families. They save the largest portion.

But more importantly, it does not help any women. There are 1.7 million Canadians in this country who cannot benefit. There are single women, and widows.... If the husband dies tomorrow, as we had some witnesses say here last time, they get nothing out of this budget.

So I ask you again. This is a tax measure. Did you analyze the impact of spending this amount of money and how it would impact upon women in this country?

[Robert Wright]

As I mentioned, there were three initiatives in the tax fairness initiative when the minister dealt with the income trusts. At that time.... There was not a budget before the announcement, so that analysis was not done in detail, as it would have been in some information for the budget.

There were three initiatives. First of all, there was the dividend distribution tax on income trusts, and then there was a set of initiatives. One was the provision for pension income splitting, which again benefited families—

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Mostly men, right?

[Robert Wright]

It benefited families. It didn't benefit anyone unless there was a couple involved who had a pension.

Secondly, there was a substantial addition to the age credit, which was particularly helpful for women.

Thirdly, there was a half-point reduction in the corporate tax rate. That was for the fairness plan from October 31, which was incorporated into the budget.

I would just say that for the budget as a whole, and I think this was in budget information—in fact, it's in the budget at page 229—that over 50% of the income tax initiatives in the budget supported Canadians in the lowest income bracket, many of whom are women.

Similarly, other initiatives, including WITB and the child tax credit, were again particularly helpful to families and to women.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I'm sorry, I'm getting a little frustrated only because I don't think you get my question, Mr. Wright. The pension splitting in the budget, which is about splitting pensions—not income overall, but pensions—benefits those who have high pensions. If you have a good pension, you can split—

[Robert Wright]

Those who have pensions, yes.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Yes, those who have pensions, but let's be realistic: if husband and wife had both worked, they're not going to get a great deal of benefit, but the reality still remains that the large number of women who are single or widows benefit nothing from that.

Am I right or not?

[Robert Wright]

It's true that single men or women would not benefit from that initiative.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

We had a witness here not too long ago who said that out of 2,600 clients, 75% are women; these are seniors. None of those 75% of seniors will benefit. The rest of the seniors she has—this is why they need services—do not have enough pensionable income to make a difference.

If you have a very high pensionable income, you're going to save a lot of money; if your pensionable income is very modest, you're going to save a lot less; and if you're a widow or single, from the analysis I've seen, you get nothing.

I need to go to another question, because I think on this one we're not....

Let me ask you, with respect to analysis in the department on policies that come forward, is a gender-based analysis done on every single item before it goes into a budget, and are racial/ethnic situations for women also taken into consideration?

[Robert Wright]

I know this is a subject you discussed with colleagues from CIC. Again, where we're starting from is focused up until this date—not exclusively, but largely—on the personal tax side, where we could make such breakouts on the gender basis. We're not equipped to make it quite as effectively on racial backgrounds, but we have a consideration section that will do an analysis of that issue.

I can't say it's done on every issue going forward on the budget. I think the major step we made this year was that there was at least a consideration section for gender-based analysis on each initiative for the budget. We're still growing in that area, to be honest with you.

By the way, I will get you some additional information on the gender impact of pensions so that it can further inform the discussion we just had. I know it's a matter of importance to you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

You have half a minute.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

My final question is—and I have many others, but hopefully I'll get back—when departments put forward their ideas or their shopping list for the budget, are they obliged to come with a gender analysis before it hits the Department of Finance or not?

[Robert Wright]

No, that hasn't been the case. Again, this year was the first time we did our own gender analysis, and in that case we did engage with other departments to work with us on it. So I think we made an important step this year and we will be building on that in future years.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

Mr. Wright, in response to the questions, you indicated that 50% of the measures in the current budget were geared towards low and middle incomes. I guess we all hear a lot of talk. You know, we prepare worksheets. When the department gives us something that says, “Here is your worksheet”, could you provide something of that nature so that we have a visual understanding? Everybody does not belong to the Department of Finance; everybody is not an accountant. It's very important that we have this type of information in front of us so that we can ask the legitimate questions and get the answers that satisfy us.

So if that could be done, it would be really appreciated. You can do it afterwards and send it to us, and we might use it in our study on economic security for women.

[Robert Wright]

I'd be very pleased to do that, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you very much.

We will now go to Madame Deschamps.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Hello once again, Mr. Wright and Ms. Éthier.

In a report that appeared in 2005, the Standing Committee on the Status of Women recommended that Status of Women Canada support the departments in their gender-based analysis. I'd like to know whether Status of Women Canada took part in those analyses and, if so, whether the $5 million cuts will affect its ability to support the departments.

[Robert Wright]

I attended a meeting with Clare Beckton, the coordinator of Status of Women Canada.

We work very closely with Status of Women on the work we do—and Mireille, you may wish to comment on a little bit of that. They help us in our training, and actually they encourage us to share our experience with other departments.

So we promote a major collaborative effort between the departments and Status of Women Canada.

There was a reduction in the Status of Women budget last fall, I believe, as a Treasury Board exercise, and some money was reallocated away from administration or from unused grants. The budget actually certainly made up for that $5 million reduction and it enhanced spending in Status of Women by an additional $5 million. So the budget provided $10 million.

So there are full resources necessary for them to continue the work they're doing with departments on gender-based analysis, and certainly we cooperate with Status of Women fully.

Mireille, you have something to add?

[Mireille Éthier, Senior Chief, Department of Finance]

Yes. A number of us at the Department of Finance, including me in particular as coordinator, have meetings with the Status of Women people to examine certain questions with them. Status of Women thus acts with other departments as well. That's being done more and more, I believe.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

The committee recommended that the Privy Council Office, Treasury Board Secretariat and Department of Finance coordinate and implement accountability mechanisms. Is that currently the case?