Status of Women Committee on June 1st, 2006

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have 38 seconds.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

All I can say in 38 seconds, Florence, is thank you, and keep up the good work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you, Florence, for offering that, which might be quite helpful. I think it would be good for us to have as much information as possible as we go forth on that matrimonial property rights issue, so it would be helpful.

Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you very much, and I have to say thank you for the work that you do.

I've been reading through some reports, the gender equality consultation report, and more disturbingly, I think, the United Nations Economic and Social Council report that came out just last week. They are very damning in terms of our response since 1993 in regard to women and children and their social conditions in this country, among all of our people.

In light of that, and the enormous amount of work that remains to be done, I wanted to come back to the budget and ask you a bit more about that. I was curious and compared the estimates for this year with the estimates for last year, and I noticed that in terms of the promotion of equitable public policy, there was a significant reduction—about half of the money that was there in the previous year is missing from the budget. In terms of the importance of building that capacity and the mandate we need to address these very significant issues, why was that money reduced? Can the department function and do its job with that reduced budget?

[Florence Ievers]

The budget itself was not reduced; it's the way it was reported in the estimates. The first priority is to promote equitable public policy. Every department has been looking at new processes and ways of reporting their activities under a program activity architecture, as prescribed by the Treasury Board. When we did the budget the year previously, what we found in digging a little deeper is that some of the money that had been put in priority number one—to promote equitable public policy—really fell under building knowledge and organizational capacity, when you looked at the activities and the work that was being done. For example, a lot of the work that's being done on gender-based analysis, a lot of research work, and a number of our other activities fell more comfortably under priority number two.

So there was no reduction in budget; it's just that when we looked at our work, a lot of it fell under building knowledge and organizational capacity. Also, the $18 million there does include the grants and contribution program, like the women's program. So it may look like a loss for the first priority, but in reality, it isn't. One activity builds on the other; in order to be able to promote equitable public policy, you have to do knowledge building and capacity building, and fund organizations in order to bring information to the fore. So one priority builds on the other. The fact that moneys may seem lower in the first is not really indicative of a loss for that priority.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay, thank you.

But funding hasn't increased over the last few years. I'm interested in the fact that it's almost $25 million, but based on these reports, it still seems we're behind.

My question is what would you need in order to fulfill your mandate, as envisioned by this committee?

[Florence Ievers]

You're asking a good question. It's a tricky question for an official to respond to, but let me take it another way.

Over the last number of years, we looked not only at how Canada was working, but how a number of other countries are working to advance gender equality. When we appeared before the United Nations Commission on the Status of Women in 2005, it was to take stock ten years after the Beijing conference to see if countries were really progressing.

Canada and a number of other like-minded countries realized that what we needed to build was more accountability. We needed to have indicators. We needed to do gender-based analysis in a more systematic way to ensure gender equality results.

It's not only a question of money. It's a question of commitment at the highest level of the government. It's a question of building more accountability, so that we can see progress: so that we not only hear of our progress and what's still lacking from international organizations, but that as a government and as a country, we know where we're going.

That's why we're investing in accountability. We're investing in a more systematic application of building accountability in the application of gender-based analysis. In so doing, the committee's work, which has finally encouraged central agencies to take their responsibilities and help us in achieving gender equality results, is key. We also need to consult with Canadians to make sure that we're getting the equation right.

Also, we need to find appropriate and fair funding for women's organizations and equality-seeking groups, in order to be able to achieve gender equality results. It's not just a question of money, it's a question of how. It's a question of commitment and accountability. It's a question of being able to say in two, three, or five years that in 2006 this is where we were on the health of women. This is where we were on this or that, and four years later, have we progressed? If not, we will ask why, then adjust our policies.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

You mentioned finding the appropriate funding for equality-seeking groups. Is there a process? Are you undergoing a review of how that money is allocated, and could you describe it?

[Florence Ievers]

Yes. In 2005-2006, we proceeded to an evaluation of the women's program. The program was found to be efficient, to be reaching its objectives, and useful for women. The question of funding and the funding mechanisms was an issue that the committee had looked at in hearing from groups, and it's a question we are currently looking at in order to ensure that there is flexibility and that we are reaching the results we expect from the grants and contributions from the program.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

It probably would be very helpful to direct some of the questions relating specifically to policy or program expenditures to the minister, when we have the minister here, to get a feel from the minister and the government.

Ms. Minna.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

If I could go back for a moment to follow up on the questions that were asked with respect to the report we had from Statistics Canada earlier this week. The report indicated that while women are almost caught up with respect to their education, and about to outstrip and surpass men, their income still hasn't caught up. Women's income is still low.

I wonder if you have done any research with respect to seeing what the correlations are and what's causing that delay? You may have done that as a result of the equity studies. Could you give us an idea of what's holding that back? What are the impacts on that—apart from discrimination at the workplace, which could be happening, and other situations, and women still working in certain traditional jobs? Why are they going into traditional jobs if they have university degrees and the same education? I wonder if you have done any studies on that and can tell us why?

[Florence Ievers]

We have done work on that. It's clear that it's a troublesome situation.

The fact is that even though education levels are at par or higher at times than men, as you say, it's not translating into income. Often women undertake other responsibilities, as we all know. They are the ones who still do most of the unpaid work in our society; although with parental benefits and other possibilities, men are taking up the challenge more than they used to. Women are also often in non-standard work because of caregiving responsibilities not only for young children, but for the elderly, the sick, and the more vulnerable in our society. At times they are involved in occupations that are not necessarily generating revenue at the same rates as others.

I would ask Zeynep Karman, who is the director of the research directorate and is responsible for the policy research fund, to give you more information on some of the research we've done that you might be interested in reading.

[Zeynep Karman, Director, Research Directorate, Status of Women Canada]

Thank you.

There are a number of research works that we certainly can send to you.

It is basically a month of time that women spend on unpaid work. There is the difference between the earnings of men and women, which doesn't seem to be improving or is improving very slowly. There is a continuous concentration of women in traditional occupations. The other interesting factor is that while there are more women going into medicine or law, for example, which are traditionally higher paying jobs, when women began to enter them, the salaries started to go down.

One other point I would like to make is that it's always the market economy that's supposed to decide the value of certain work. In terms of caregiving occupations, however, because they are done freely, we are always paying them less.

For example, in Canada there are lots of immigrant women who are in special programs to work in Canada. Canadians are not taking these jobs because they are always being paid less. If you ask people, the value they place on their children is very high, but what we are paying is very low for taking care of them.

These are some of the issues, but we can certainly provide more information on the research work that we have done.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I'd appreciate that because the report was quite enlightening in what it showed. It was obviously pretty disappointing as well. I think pay equity legislation might go towards remedying that, but not all of it.

The other thing the report showed is that 67% of women with children under six were working, and close to 72% of women with children between six and fifteen were also working. Child care is needed for both. Do you have research showing the impact on income for women and their ability to work to earn a proper living, given the numbers of women who are in the labour force and who have small children?

[Zeynep Karman]

The information that we have is from our work with Statistics Canada. We have not particularly asked that question, because the factual information is out there.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

We haven't crossed that yet. There hasn't been a correlation done on some of these pieces yet. Is that right?

[Zeynep Karman]

I will have to look into it.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Okay. It would be useful.

To go back to caregiving, there were two issues that came up.

One was the poverty of unattached seniors, specifically women, but men as well. A couple with two incomes is doing better than unattached seniors, as we all know. Obviously, it's something that needs to be addressed through income support.

The question I have is on caregiving, which you mentioned earlier. A lot of women who are now caregivers are losing out on their own pensions and income levels. As you said, they're either getting low pay or doing it for free or part-time, and they're looking after the family and sacrificing. We have a whole group of women who are now probably in their fifties, who are going to be poor seniors not too long in the distant future.

Have any studies been done on behalf of the government to see what can be done to remedy the situation, either in the pension area, through income support, or with respect to the funding of caregiving? Are there any studies going on with other departments and with yourself to try to preempt this?

[Zeynep Karman]

We did a series of studies on unpaid work, and there are some recommendations, independent recommendations from the researchers, that we certainly can share with the committee.

[Florence Ievers]

As well, with this problem emerging in recent years, we have seen, as you say, more women giving up some of their paid work in order to be able to look after family members and others. This is not a new issue but it is relatively new. Perhaps the department that looks at pensions and at how women and men will fare in their later years has been doing studies on this emerging issue to make sure that the programs are adapted in order to not penalize them. But we have not done them.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

So your shop has not been involved or has not been asked to participate in any of this stuff.

Madam Chair, perhaps we could ask the departments responsible to come before the committee on these issues.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

We have it down on a list of people we want to have come.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Stanton