Evidence of meeting #20 for Status of Women in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was policy.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Anita Biguzs  Assistant Secretary to Cabinet, Operations Secretariat, Privy Council Office
Joe Wild  Executive Director, Strategic Policy, Treasury Board Secretariat

9 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Good morning, everyone.

I would like to welcome Ms. Biguzs and Mr. Wild, from the PCO and Treasury Board respectively. As I mentioned, we are doing a gender budgeting study, our preamble to what would be required. We have heard a lot of witnesses, and we have heard from Status of Women Canada. We would like to see how the pieces of the puzzle fit, so that we are able to move forward in an intelligent and a logical manner.

I understand, Ms. Biguzs, that you have a presentation of ten minutes. I will have to leave the chair at ten o'clock; I have to be in the House. Ms. Davidson will taking over.

With that, Ms. Biguzs....

9 a.m.

Anita Biguzs Assistant Secretary to Cabinet, Operations Secretariat, Privy Council Office

Thank you.

I'll try to keep my comments brief and turn to my colleague from Treasury Board, Mr. Wild.

My name is Anita Biguzs. I am the assistant secretary to the cabinet for operations in the Privy Council Office. I'm also the acting assistant secretary to the cabinet for social development policy. This latter position includes responsibilities as the champion for gender-based analysis in the Privy Council Office. I have been in the position of acting assistant secretary social development policy for the last two months while this position is being staffed on a permanent basis.

I'm very pleased to be here this morning to help discuss and describe the policy development process and the role of PCO in that process, and in gender-based analysis as part of it. It's very fitting, with International Women's Day this Saturday, that we are discussing this issue.

I think it would be helpful if I first explained the role of the Privy Council Office in the policy development process and then spoke about the role of the gender-based analysis champion.

The primary responsibility of the Privy Council Office is to provide public service support to the Prime Minister and to cabinet. We are responsible for facilitating the smooth and effective operation of the cabinet decision-making process, where policy decisions are taken by the government.

It is important to note that PCO is not responsible for leading the direct development of new policies or programs. This responsibility resides with departments. Rather, PCO helps shape policies by supporting departments in their efforts to act on the government's agenda.

Our role is to help advance the policy process by providing constructive feedback to departmental proposals and to ensure that the proposals are ready for consideration by cabinet; in other words, that the due diligence has been undertaken so that proposals are practical, responsible, and sustainable. This is accomplished by helping to ensure that there is coherence and clarity in new policy proposals and existing programs and that these are consistent with the government's overall agenda.

Status of Women Canada also plays a very important role in the policy process, and I know you've met with representatives from Status of Women. They are the policy experts in the area of gender-based analysis, and the agency assists departments and central agencies, through training and support, to ensure that a gender-based analysis has been conducted as appropriate.

The Speech from the Throne lays out the government's agenda and key priorities. Responsible ministers are tasked with bringing forward policy proposals to advance the government's priorities as outlined in the Speech from the Throne. Historically, in support of cabinet decision-making, departments are required to prepare a Memorandum to Cabinet.

The memorandum to cabinet is the basis for cabinet decision-making. There is a template available online at the PCO website for access by departmental analysts and the public. If you haven't seen it, I have a copy here. The template includes a consideration section where the sponsoring department is expected to include an analysis of a full range of perspectives, and that includes gender issues.

The analysis to support a policy initiative should include a range of considerations, including, for example, the problem or issue that needs to be addressed, the rationale for government action, the objectives to be accomplished, whether it has implications for existing programs or policies, and whether there are horizontal interdependencies or ramifications with other issues or programs within the department or other departments. It should identify a range of credible options to provide the government with choices. It should also include an assessment of implications, including issues such as costs, benefits, effectiveness.

In other words, the memorandum to cabinet should demonstrate how a proposal aligns with relevant management, fiscal, and policy agendas and the government's overall direction.

Individual ministers and their departments are responsible for ensuring that various aspects of the proposal are considered and assessed. From a horizontal perspective it is part of PCO's coordination role to make sure interdepartmental consultations are undertaken during the MC process and that the considerations raised by other departments are taken into account by the sponsoring department. At the same time, central agencies--and that includes PCO, Finance, and Treasury Board Secretariat--work together to provide feedback and to challenge proposals against the range of considerations--and that includes gender-based analysis--to ensure that when a proposal comes forward, cabinet is presented with information to help inform decision-making.

So that represents the public service role in cabinet decision-making and how we develop our non-partisan, neutral advice. After this point it is up to cabinet to consider, discuss, and debate proposals and take decisions collectively on how to proceed. It is important to bear in mind that the policy process must be considered in a broad context, and that it must weigh numerous considerations and impacts of competing priorities and pressures.

Turning to look within PCO, based on recommendations made by this standing committee the Privy Council Office has also established the role of gender-based analysis champion attached to the function of assistant secretary of social development policy. The champion's role is to ensure that gender-based analysis is integrated into the policy process and challenge function of PCO. On an ongoing basis the champion works to promote and encourage gender-based analysis training to all PCO officials. To ensure a coordinated horizontal perspective on the issue, PCO is a member of a gender-based analysis interdepartmental committee, which assists in the creation, coordination, facilitation, and support of gender-based analysis activities across federal government departments and agencies.

As part of our commitments we have worked with Status of Women Canada to provide annual training to PCO officers to ensure officers are familiar with gender-based analysis as part of their challenge-function role. This training helps analysts to identify whether gender issues have been taken into consideration in program and policy proposals presented by departments. Formal gender-based training was first piloted at PCO starting in the summer of 2006. The second round of training was provided early in 2007, and following participant evaluations training has now been incorporated into the annual suite of courses available to analysts. We are currently working on rolling out the 2008 training with Status of Women Canada, and we're trying to reflect the results of evaluations and the comments we received last year.

In conclusion, I would like to say that I think progress has been achieved over the last two years--I think thanks to a lot of the recommendations and work of this committee--to ensure that gender-based analysis has a profile in the Privy Council Office, and to ensure that it is embedded in the training curricula of PCO officers consistent with their role to undertake policy due diligence. Our colleagues in Status of Women have provided their expertise and assistance to us to ensure that training has been provided. The introduction of this training has been an important tool to strengthen the PCO challenge function.

With that I will conclude my comments. I hope I haven't exceeded my time.

I'll turn to my colleague, Joe Wild.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Thank you, and no, you didn't.

Mr. Wild, for ten minutes.

9:10 a.m.

Joe Wild Executive Director, Strategic Policy, Treasury Board Secretariat

Good morning.

Thank you for the invitation to appear before the House of Commons Standing Committee on the Status of Women to discuss the progress that Treasury Board Secretariat has made with respect to gender-based analysis (GBA).

I am happy to be here to speak on behalf of the secretariat. Normally, our GBA Champion would be making this presentation, however, Jeanne Flemming has recently been appointed by the Prime Minister to head FINTRAC. I would like to assure you that our secretary, Wayne Wouters, is fully committed to moving forward with our GBA commitments.

This time last year our associate secretary, Linda Lizotte-MacPherson, appeared before this committee and provided an update on the steps the secretariat had taken to meet the commitments we made following the committee's report, “Gender-Based Analysis: Building Blocks for Success”. I am very pleased to tell you that since that time, we've continued to make significant progress in entrenching GBA considerations, tools, and practices into our everyday work.

Last year our associate secretary explained the roles of departments and central agencies in applying GBA. I'd like to focus more specifically on the role of the secretariat in the development of programs and policy and in the implementation of gender-based analysis. Afterwards I'll describe what we have accomplished in the last year and where we are hoping to go in the future.

First, departments and agencies are responsible for the development of programs that are compliant with policies, including GBA. Our program analysts have an important challenge function with departments as they assist departments to develop proposals for consideration by Treasury Board ministers. Part of that challenge is to ensure that the department has undertaken GBA in the development of its Treasury Board submission and that the proposal has no unintended gender bias. In the past year, we have continued to foster gender-based analysis, building on our commitments. Those commitments were to train staff in gender-based analysis within the context of our mandate; to screen Treasury Board management policies to ensure there are no unintended gender impacts; to use the management, resources and results structure, or MRRS, to ensure that departments use performance information in the management of their programs, including those with gender-specific objectives; and ensure that the management accountability framework, or MAF, makes reference to assessing analytical capacity and practices in departments.

We are taking steps to embed GBA as a practice throughout the organization. For example, gender-based analysis is included in staff training and undertaken as part of our policy development and oversight roles. Eventually we will be in a position to begin reporting on results and linking program spending to horizontal issues such as gender.

In order to continue moving forward, the secretariat has developed an action plan that outlines how we will ensure that GBA is included in our activities on an ongoing basis. This action plan clarifies the roles of the secretariat's GBA champions, senior managers, and our program and policy analysts in the application of GBA. By doing this the secretariat has taken an important step in bringing GBA into the mainstream of our day-to-day business. Ultimately our goal is to make sure that each program and policy analyst in our organization has GBA “reflexes”, so that in interacting with departments and in providing advice and guidance, they consciously integrate GBA considerations into the work we do every day. I think this follows very much along the lines of the testimony that Dr. David Good gave. For us, we're trying to integrate it throughout the organization so that it is part of our day-to-day work.

The TBS approach highlights our work in partnership with Privy Council Office, the Department of Finance, and Status of Women Canada to advance GBA. We look forward to continuing our strong and productive relationship with Status of Women Canada, and continue to rely on them for their valuable advice and expertise as we move forward.

I'll now just go quickly through our progress in meeting our four commitments. With respect to training, since we last appeared before this committee, the secretariat has actually incorporated GBA into our training for program analysts. All new analysts are required to attend what we call the TBS boot camp. Boot camp is basically our orientation program for anybody new coming into the organization; it basically gives them the tools they need to understand how to do their job. It's a comprehensive learning event that includes specific training on GBA. Furthermore, we've provided additional training to clarify and provide further guidance on the application of GBA in the context of Treasury Board submissions. These learning events have been developed in close collaboration with Status of Women Canada, and they're intended to teach analysts how GBA can be applied to their day-to-day work, in particular in reviewing policies through a GBA lens and being more aware of the supports, resources and tools that can be used to apply GBA to their work. To date over 100 analysts have attended learning sessions, and future training events are already being planned.

Another key step in entrenching GBA was to ensure that it was included in our guide to preparing Treasury Board submissions. The updated guide includes clear reminders to departments and agencies to ensure that their program proposals are GBA compliant and to report their findings in the Treasury Board submissions. Our analysts are then able to apply their training in reviewing submissions, challenging departments and in providing advice to Treasury Board ministers.

With respect to policy renewal, we had committed in 2006 to ensuring that Treasury Board management policies would be free of unintended gender bias, and we're doing this as part of our work in renewing the entirety of the Treasury Board policy suite. The renewal of the policy suite is a joint Treasury Board Secretariat and Canada Public Service Agency initiative to reduce the number of rules, while at the same time strengthening management and enhancing accountability.

One of our commitments was to screen our policies to ensure there are no unintended gender impacts. We have made significant progress in this area and have updated the guidance on developing Treasury Board policy instruments, consistent with the guide for policy-making issued by Status of Women Canada. My directorate is actually responsible for challenging whether or not the policy centres that are responsible for developing policy have actually considered potential gender impacts of both the policy development and implementation stages. Finally, renewed policies are also edited thoroughly to ensure gender-neutral language is used throughout.

With respect to program performance, the management resources and results structure, or MRRS, is a policy that ensures, among other things, that departments and agencies track programs in a structured manner, that departments define expected results for all their programs, that they develop indicators, and that they report on results.

This policy is being implemented in a five-step process. The first step was to take an inventory of the programs of the Government of Canada. We now know there are approximately 3,000 of those. The second step, which we are in the process of completing now, is to develop performance measurement frameworks for each of these programs. Once this is done, then both departments and central agencies will be able to use this performance information to help make better management decisions. The step after we complete getting these frameworks in place is to create a centralized database where this information will be stored. Once that's fully implemented, it will ensure that, across government, resources are clearly aligned with results. It will also ensure that the information is standardized across government, so we can actually properly compare what's going on.

Once the database is complete, we would be able to use that information to help us better understand horizontal initiatives, and one of those uses could be to track government programs that specifically affect target groups, including gender. Because of the time required to collect and input this large quantity of data, developing this kind of functionality is going to take us several years. We certainly remain committed to moving forward with MRRS and to exploiting the vast potential of this tool in assisting us to understand program performance, including in the area of gender impacts.

Our last commitment was to ensure that the management accountability framework, or MAF, makes reference to assessing analytical capacity and practices in departments. The MAF sets out expectations of good public sector management. Since its inception the assessment tool for MAF has become increasingly sophisticated, and it continues to evolve. Departments and agencies use their MAF assessments to pinpoint areas of management that need to be addressed.

One of the areas that is assessed under MAF is the quality of analysis in Treasury Board submissions, which includes the appropriate use of GBA. As I mentioned before, GBA is one of the policy lenses departments are to consider in their Treasury Board submissions, and by doing so, the secretariat is sending a clear signal that we expect Treasury Board submissions to include good-quality, adequate, and sound analysis of gender-based impacts of their proposed programs. MAF assessments for this particular year are not yet completed, but once they are the onus will once again be on departments to address any performance shortcomings.

So in terms of moving forward, certainly we're continuing our efforts to ensure that GBA is part of our business processes. We will continue to train our Treasury Board Secretariat analysts and we will improve that training based on their feedback. We will also continue to communicate the importance of GBA with departments in the development of Treasury Board submissions. And finally, through MRRS and MAF, we are contributing to departmental awareness of the importance in considering and addressing gender in decision-making. It's certainly an ongoing effort. We know that promoting culture change requires attention and effort, and through our own action plan, MAF assessments, feedback from Status of Women Canada, and comments from this committee, we're going to continue our efforts toward integrating GBA in our ongoing activities.

Madam Chair, this concludes my remarks. I would be pleased to answer questions committee members may have.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Thank you, Mr. Wild.

We now start with the first round of questions.

Ms. Minna, for seven minutes.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to both of our witnesses for coming.

I have a fairly good understanding of how the process works, because of my having been in cabinet before. I also know where the power resides in terms of monitoring the spending, which is Treasury Board, of course. But before that, the Department of Finance has a tremendous amount of power in terms of what goes in the budget, together obviously with the Minister of Finance. The Department of Finance also over time, I've noticed, has tended to mentor people from the finance department who then have gone and worked in other departments.

So I have a question. Does the Department of Finance have individuals in the different departments—because I know you have all kinds of people who have worked in finance before—who, because of their understanding of the Department of Finance and so on, have been actually mandated to do a proper, segregated analysis on programs before they even start going to the cabinet process?

9:20 a.m.

Assistant Secretary to Cabinet, Operations Secretariat, Privy Council Office

Anita Biguzs

Were you asking about whether the Department of Finance has individuals?

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Yes.

9:20 a.m.

Assistant Secretary to Cabinet, Operations Secretariat, Privy Council Office

Anita Biguzs

I think you have an official appearing from the Department of Finance next week. I think you'd be best placed to actually ask the Department of Finance, in terms of—

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Do we not have the finance department today?

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

No. This is TBS and PCO.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

I apologize. That's right.

9:20 a.m.

Assistant Secretary to Cabinet, Operations Secretariat, Privy Council Office

Anita Biguzs

But certainly, if I can comment in terms of the Privy Council, in the nature of PCO being a central agency, you do have people coming from the finance department, or going to other departments from PCO, or coming from line departments to PCO. In terms of the skill sets and the competencies we look for in PCO, it does include an ability to look at analysis. Many of our PCO officers, in fact, come from special accelerated economist trainee programs, have graduated from those programs, so they would also have some background in doing analysis.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Okay. I have a question, then, actually to Treasury Board.

When the budget is done, there are implementation bills that go through to implement budget processes. Let's say, with the last budget, which dealt with pension splitting, the implementation of some things would have to come through Privy Council. Does Privy Council now already do an actual analysis before the program becomes alive or viable, as to its impact on the gender-based agenda? As programs come forward for spending and as you monitor that spending, that's Treasury Board's role. Do you now do an analysis as to what the gender impact will be of that budget item that is now being applied as a spending item?

9:20 a.m.

Executive Director, Strategic Policy, Treasury Board Secretariat

Joe Wild

When the department brings forward its Treasury Board submission to implement and basically to get its allotment in order to spend against its appropriation in a particular area, once you're actually at that implementation phase and they come forward with a Treasury Board submission, they are required within that submission to have provided or have performed a gender-based analysis. Our analysts then look at whether or not, in fact, a gender-based analysis has been performed by the department. It is the department's responsibility to do that, and then we assess whether or not it has been done, and we assess whether or not it has been done in an adequate fashion.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

So which items of the budget, then—the previous budget, not even the current one—have received a gender-based analysis before applying them, and what were those results? And if they found the results to be impacting unintended consequences, what was done about it?

9:20 a.m.

Executive Director, Strategic Policy, Treasury Board Secretariat

Joe Wild

I don't have specifics on specific items that have come through. What I can say again is that any item out of the last budget that has come forward with a Treasury Board submission would have had a gender-based analysis performed upon it as part of the submission process, and the Treasury Board analysts would have examined whether or not that analysis was adequate. I'm not aware of any particular incident where, if there was any issue with the adequacy of the analysis, that wasn't ultimately addressed before it went on to the ministers.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Would we be able to get that information? What I'm trying to get at is that I would like to see it in action, actually functioning. I understand the process that you've just described, and we've heard it before, but I would like to see some examples of how it has actually happened in some instances and what were the consequences or not of the specific item.

9:20 a.m.

Executive Director, Strategic Policy, Treasury Board Secretariat

Joe Wild

Part of the difficulty of dealing with specific items is that they're all wrapped up in the Treasury Board submission process, which are cabinet confidences, and that puts me in a bit of an awkward position.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

But we can get the analysis, can we not?

9:20 a.m.

Executive Director, Strategic Policy, Treasury Board Secretariat

Joe Wild

Again, we'd have to go through and pull all of those submissions to determine them and see what we could pull out. We could certainly undertake to look at doing that. I'm just not in a position to be able to speak to a specific item that would have gone through Treasury Board.

We deal with approximately 850 submissions a year. So trying to identify whether there's some specific submission that you're actually interested in would be of help, rather than trying to figure out which of these 850 are actually—

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Okay, the pension splitting is a specific item. Was that looked at? What was the analysis done on that before it was actually implemented?

9:25 a.m.

Executive Director, Strategic Policy, Treasury Board Secretariat

Joe Wild

I'm not aware that there would have been necessarily a Treasury Board submission for pension splitting, given that it's part of a legislation scheme. That's probably a more appropriate question to put to the Department of Finance, since they were responsible for that particular project and they would be in a better position to answer as to what analysis would have been done on it. I'm not aware whether or not pension splitting actually would have even come into Treasury Board at a certain point.

Again, it only comes to Treasury Board if the department is actually having to access funding to do something. It doesn't come to—

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

So test measures do not necessarily come to Treasury Board.

9:25 a.m.

Executive Director, Strategic Policy, Treasury Board Secretariat

Joe Wild

Generally, no, they don't.