Status of Women Committee on March 4th, 2008

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

That's interesting, because that means a whole pile of stuff just isn't going to be looked at, except that we need to deal with finance when it gets there.

Am I over my time? My time's over.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Yes.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

For the benefit of this committee, could you have a flow chart that shows where your responsibility begins and ends? Because we're looking at submissions here, and they are all words. We're looking for something concrete. I think concrete is important for us.

Mr. Wild--I'm taking this privilege, because I'll be leaving the chair soon--you were talking about cultural change requiring effort and continuity. I understand that Ms. Flemming was the person who was an expert on gender-based analysis, but she has left. So do you have another champion who understands this?

You can answer later. You don't have to answer now, but just keep it in your mind. I would expect Ms. Davidson to follow up with you if you don't answer the question. Ms. Davidson is taking the chair afterwards.

Thank you.

We now go to Madame Deschamps.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and welcome to both of you.

All of this is rather vague for me. It's not easy to understand the process and how gender-based analysis is applied. We have heard from many witnesses from various departments, public servants and experts who were not directly involved in the decision-making process of the government. That's why I find it difficult to get my head around it.

I would like to understand the role played by the champion. Who designates the champion? Is such a champion found in all departments? Does he or she play a specific role? Who appoints this person?

[Joe Wild]

I can speak to the practice of the Treasury Board Secretariat.

At Treasury Board, the secretary appoints the champion. I don't know if all departments have a champion.

Madam Chair, Jeanne Flemming was our champion. She literally started a new job yesterday, so the secretariat is in the process of examining who will be best positioned to play the role.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Continue, Mr. Wild.

[Joe Wild]

Jeanne Flemming was our champion. She just started a new job on Monday, and the secretariat is in the process of examining where that role should be situated next. It will simply take a little bit of time to figure out exactly who should perform that role. Again, my assumption is that the appointment will be made as soon as possible. We certainly take the role of the GBA champion very seriously at the secretariat. I think a fair amount of work has been done, with the champion leading that work, to integrate GBA throughout the organization.

[Anita Biguzs]

For PCO, the role of champion resides with the assistant secretary for social development policy, and that position, as I say, is designated by the clerk. As I mentioned at the beginning, the assistant secretary was promoted, actually, to an associate deputy position in December, so I've been acting in the position.

The function of the GBA champion in PCO is to promote gender-based analysis and to ensure that it's embedded, incorporated, in the training for PCO officers who work directly in the policy development process. The role of champion was created about two years ago as a result of the recommendations of this particular committee. And as a result of having the champion, we have in fact initiated a training program for PCO officers. It's part of the ongoing tool kit, if I can put it that way, for PCO officers, for new officers, when they come to the PCO policy secretariat so they understand their role as doing the challenge function on policy initiatives coming forward to the cabinet process.

The lead, in terms of expertise on gender-based analysis, of course, resides with Status of Women Canada. We turn to our colleagues and our experts there, and they help us in terms of organizing the training on gender-based analysis for our policy officers.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

When a memorandum is submitted, must it contain an analysis? You stated that the role of the champion is to promote and encourage, but that person is not obliged to include GBA in a memorandum submitted to Privy Council.

[Anita Biguzs]

The role of the champion is to ensure that the officers—and the officers are the lead contact point with departments.... Our job as a champion is to make sure that we embed gender-based analysis in the policy challenge function and that we provide our officers with the tools they need so that they understand gender-based analysis and what the requirements are.

So that's the role of the champion: to make sure it's embedded in our training programs and in the culture of PCO officers, so that the PCO officers, who are really the lead contacts with departments in performing a policy challenge function, understand their role. When working on a particular policy initiative, if there's a priority that's moving forward identified by the government as a priority, the officer dealing with the department will ask the questions, will understand and ask whether the implications have been assessed.

As appropriate, it would be included in the analysis of the memorandum to cabinet. Also, through an interdepartmental process we would look to Status of Women. A key part of any initiative coming forward to cabinet, and the role of PCO, is to ensure that there is in fact horizontal coordination and that we ensure that any initiative coming in has a full interdepartmental process, which includes a meeting where representatives from each department—and that would include a representative from Status of Women—would have an opportunity to review an initiative coming forward and to provide their input.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

This is your last question, Madame Deschamps, please.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

You stated that this is occurring within the development of a new program, a new memorandum, a new priority. Is this work also being done in the case of existing programs that are automatically renewed? I'm referring, for example, to two topics that interest me greatly: employment insurance programs and guaranteed income supplement programs.

[Anita Biguzs]

In PCO, we focus largely on new initiatives coming in to cabinet. It may be a new initiative, or it may be the renewal of an initiative, if it requires a policy authority because something was sunsetting and requires renewed authority. That would be an opportunity, certainly, for PCO, at that point in time.

Looking at the renewal of programs and trying, as I say, to get to results-based programming and strategic reviews that Treasury Board is doing is, I think, more of a Treasury Board role, if I may speak for Joe. PCO is largely focused on supporting the cabinet process and therefore new initiatives coming into cabinet. That is where we would contribute, in terms of asking questions on whether gender-based analysis has been performed.

For example, on the EI program, if it's the EI compassionate care leave, we would want to ensure that it's looked at very carefully in terms of the implications for women and for men and how they would be affected by any initiative. That's our role in the policy process.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

You're coming back on Thursday—

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

May I hear Mr. Wild's answer?

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Après.

You can see from the questions we're asking that we really need this flow chart to show where your responsibility begins and ends, so that we're asking you legitimate questions and understand the process. So if you want to respond, make a quick response, because I have to go to the next round.

[Joe Wild]

Very quickly, there is something new from last year that now brings all spending under review; it's called strategic reviews.

Basically, on a four-year cycle all existing spending within government—what we call the “A base”—will be reviewed. We're doing it in chunks, doing basically 25% of it each year, more or less. That review is being done to assess whether or not programs are properly aligned with government priorities, whether or not they're actually providing value for money. Organizations are being asked to identify lowest-priority programs, lowest-performing programs, as well as areas where they actually may require additional investment to improve performance. These are all then considered by cabinet, as part of the budget-planning process.

The key point about strategic reviews is that this is our tool to get at all ongoing spending. It's not just looking at new spending. It looks at the whole of it, and as part of that process, departments are expected to be reflecting on any of their programs that are addressing gender issues. So it comes in that way.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

Ms. Boucher, you have seven minutes.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Greetings to both of you.

I am surprised to see that GBA is not mandatory everywhere. How can we ensure that all departments conduct this analysis and establish gender-specific budgets?

If I understood correctly, it is not mandatory and you are responsible for conducting horizontal analysis. In 2008, how can we make such analysis mandatory and ensure that it is implemented? I don't want this to be just a document.

Also, I would like to know whether you have strict rules. When a department prepares an MC, I understand that it is not obliged to include GBA. Why is that?

[Joe Wild]

I think there may be a bit of a misunderstanding. Certainly my understanding of GBA is that it is performed at the MC stage, so as the policy or program is actually being developed and submitted for cabinet approval. Then, within the Treasury Board context, every Treasury Board submission that comes forward has to have a GBA performed on it by the department that is submitting the submission, and the Treasury Board analysts review the adequacy of that analysis that has been completed by the responsible department.

As far as I understand the way the system comes together, between what finance is doing with the budget when they take it into account at that point, when the departments are doing it as part of the MC proposal stage and developing a new policy or program proposal, and then ultimately when it comes in to Treasury Board to get the specific approvals that are necessary for the allotment funds, or because it's required by policy to come in for Treasury Board approval to implement the particular program or initiative, GBA is embedded in all of those steps. Certainly from my perspective at the secretariat, our approach has been to try to make this part of the normal policy development process that goes on within Treasury Board. It is one of the lenses that we examine all submissions through, and as I said before, we're trying to make it a reflex. We're trying to embed it in the organization so that there's a reflex that all analysts use that as part of their challenge function, vis-à-vis departments that are bringing forward these submissions.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Once all that is done, do you perform follow-up to ensure that the GBA that has been requested is applied within the department and provides results?

[Joe Wild]

That's a more complicated question. The analysts are certainly challenging whether or not the GBA is adequate. Status of Women Canada, the public, and committees such as this one ultimately oversee and provide a view on whether a particular program or initiative reflects an appropriate GBA. We do assess whether the GBA performed by the department is sufficient. I think we have to keep in mind that it is ministers who are making decisions on these programs, and there are a whole host of interests they're balancing in making those decisions.

Ultimately it is up to parliamentarians and the public to hold the government accountable for how they feel, how those decisions have been made, and whether those decisions are reflective of anybody's given view of the public interest at that time.

Our role is to assure ourselves that analysis has been done and that the analysis is adequate. We're not necessarily there to ensure a given outcome. That's where I think you're going, that there should be a specific type of outcome, and that's not our job as public servants. Ultimately that's the job of ministers, to balance those considerations.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Ms. Biguzs, if I understood correctly, it does not work exactly the same way at the Privy Council Office. PCO conducts horizontal analysis, but it is not obliged to do GBA. How can you make this analysis mandatory?

[Anita Biguzs]

If I can clarify, the lead department is responsible for doing the analysis in terms of any initiative that would come forward to cabinet. The role of PCO and the PCO officer is to perform the challenge function and to ensure that gender-based analysis has actually been undertaken. The considerations in a memorandum to cabinet, which I mentioned to you, actually include, and it's part of the role of the PCO officer to ask about, the gender-based analysis that has been performed, but it is the lead department that is actually responsible for that. It's also Status of Women Canada that is at the interdepartmental table as well. That's a very important role in terms of the interdepartmental consultation process. So again, it's embedded as part of the considerations.

Our role is to ensure that ministers receive information and that the memorandum to cabinet gives them a good assessment of an issue, the implications of an issue for men and women, and considerations around things like strategic environmental assessment, which is also a requirement. There are many considerations that have to be put in front of ministers in terms of the decision-making process. That's our role. We want to make sure that ministers have the information they need to make the decisions. They are ultimately the decision-makers. We are there to provide them with the analysis and the information on which a decision would be based.