Status of Women Committee on May 1st, 2008

[Glen Pearson, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you.

In your report you also mentioned that you feel a certain amount of constraint as an officer of Parliament in the fact that you have to come to the same government for budget approval and that makes it more difficult for you. So some of you have banded together, looking for change in that.

Can I ask you what that remedy would be if we did have a gender commissioner?

[Graham Fraser]

What we the agents of Parliament are working on is to try to see how this pilot project of a parliamentary panel can move from being a temporary measure to becoming a permanent parliamentary mechanism to deal with funding requests from agents of Parliament.

We've had a report done by William Corbett, the former Clerk of the House, who has done an assessment of our views of the successes and limitations of the approach so far. Sheila Fraser, who is taking the lead on this, has written Minister Toews, hoping this can move forward. In March, Minister Toews wrote to us, saying that this is under consideration.

But we're also discussing looking specifically at Treasury Board, Public Service Commission, and Canada Public Service Agency policies that have a potential impact on our independence. The Auditor General's office came up with a list of some 200 policies that potentially might. We've narrowed those down to 26 to 27. So we are continuing the discussion with Treasury Board about those policies that we feel are potentially a threat to our independence.

[Glen Pearson, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

We would want the commissioner to have that. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

Ms. Davidson, for five minutes.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much, Mr. Fraser and other members, for being here with us this morning. It's certainly interesting to hear how your particular area works and, in some cases, maybe doesn't work quite so well.

I think every member sitting around this table realizes that we need the accountability and we need the independence. What we've been discussing with this issue of gender budgeting is somebody having the oversight, because this committee doesn't have the expertise, of course, to do that.

I have a couple of questions for you about the structure as it occurs in your department. I'm not so sure they would be identical, but I think they would be somewhat similar.

You said there was a budget today of about $19 million.

[Graham Fraser]

That's correct.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

I have two or three questions I'll ask, and then maybe you could answer them.

I'm wondering how, for sure, you determine that budget. How many employees do you have today, and how many did you have when this started? How did it grow as your department unfolded, and so on?

Who controls that? Who has the responsibility for that? We need the independence, so I'm not quite clear how you can have the independence and still have somebody have some control over it. I'm having a hard time balancing that.

[Graham Fraser]

It's a challenge. I sometimes have a hard time balancing that myself.

In terms of the evolution of how it started, next year will be the 40th anniversary of the act, and I've found myself asking precisely that question of how we got from there to here. So one of the things I've asked that we do is to do a study internally of precisely that. We're now going through a renewal stage, because a number of people, some senior people, are retiring this year. There will be new people arriving--and I've been in this job for only a year and a half--and I thought it would be very useful for me and for them to know precisely what the stages of evolution were through the five previous commissioners.

My sense from talking to Keith Spicer was that he started with half a dozen people, and Keith will be quite cheerful in saying--and he recounts it in his memoirs--how there were elements of it that he made up as he went along. It became more formal as years went by. There was the creation of regional offices, for example, which both do the promotion work and also receive complaints. We have five regional offices plus smaller one-person offices. There's an office in Sudbury that reports through Toronto. There's an office in Regina that reports through Winnipeg. There's an office in Vancouver that reports through Edmonton.

In terms of our reporting to Parliament, we meet the same budgetary cycle as everybody else does. We do a report on plans and priorities, as everybody else does. When Treasury Board comes down with various requirements, we meet those requirements. When the government decided that there should be an internal audit process for every department, we were the first of the agents of Parliament to set in place an internal audit procedure. We are audited by the Auditor General. We've had five successive clean bills of health. We have fairly intense budgetary discussions in terms of how we're going to allocate the money that comes forward. When it was clear that there were obligations from the government that it was going to cost more, we were able to go to the parliamentary panel and lay out the case, saying this is the money that we need to meet these new obligations.

My own view is that independence carries responsibilities, that the more independent we are from the financial institutions of government that we are also monitoring, the greater our responsibility is to be transparent and responsible in our handling of taxpayers' dollars. We try to be as rigorous as we can in ensuring that we're transparent. My travel and hospitality expenses are posted on the Internet. Our budgeting procedures are made very clear in the reports on plans and priorities, and as I say, we've had five consecutive clean bills of health from the Auditor General.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

Ms. Davidson, your time is up.

I don't think I heard the answer to what Ms. Davidson asked. What she was asking was, if you are getting a budget from the government and you want to be independent, where is the other source of revenue? For example, Canada Post will be self-sufficient, and the Mint will be self-sufficient.

[Graham Fraser]

There is no other source of revenue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Okay.

[Graham Fraser]

I'm sorry. I misunderstood your question, then. There is no other source of revenue.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

That's fine.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

So you won't be independent from government that way?

[Graham Fraser]

In that sense, we won't, no.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Okay.

Madame Deschamps, vous avez cinq minutes, s'il vous plaît.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I too would like to welcome you here. Thank you for adding to our knowledge of the issue under study by the Status of Women Committee.

You spoke about a parliamentary panel, Mr. Fraser, which was established to review your budget submissions and the way in which you perform your mandate. Is it not dangerous to be supervised by a panel composed of parliamentarians? Could this panel, at the request of various governments, change your mandate or limit the authority you already have?

[Graham Fraser]

Theoretically, yes.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

The idea behind the creation of this panel was to give you more independence or freedom regarding your budget submissions.

[Graham Fraser]

Some people are of the view that officers of Parliament are better protected by the executive than by parliamentarians. The parliamentary panel is chaired by the Speaker of the House of Commons. The members are parliamentarians who have respect for the duties of officers of Parliament.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Who is on this panel?

[Graham Fraser]

It is made up of representatives—

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Of each party?

[Graham Fraser]

Yes. The last time I appeared before the panel, the members were Ms. Lavallée, from the Bloc Québécois, Paul Dewar, from the NDP, Derek Lee and Mr. Szabo from the Liberal Party and Ms. Ablonczy from the Conservative Party. There were other members as well, but I cannot think of their names right now.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Does the panel meet regularly once a year, or is it at your request?