Status of Women Committee on June 5th, 2008

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I think we've had a fairly fulsome discussion on this. I think the comments from the chair, as well as others, are instructive in terms of how a motion might be brought before the committee.

In recognition that this is Ms. Mathyssen's motion--and perhaps with the comments that we've had here today--she might go back and take another stab at coming up with the wording that suits your purpose, and the committee could take a look at that. I think to belabour this.... We're slowly getting into a discussion about the very subject matter that we say we may or may not be able to study.

That would be my suggestion, Madam Chair, to take the comments that have been offered here today, which have been helpful in framing a new motion....

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you, Mr. Stanton.

Madame Boucher.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

My comments echo Mr. Stanton's. I think that we work extremely hard, as Ms. Deschamps said. We have to find another way to say it and see how we can reach agreement.

Ms. Deschamps, I know that a private member's bill, just like a government bill, can have very serious consequences. However, I want you to know that this is not a government bill and that we have no intention of reopening the debate on abortion. I want this to be clear to everyone.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Ms. Demers, we are all ears.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Let us stop beating about the bush, Madam Chair. We have already seen paternalistic attitudes toward us, so you can go and take your attitude elsewhere, we do not need it here. I have been fighting for 58 years on behalf of women and I will continue to do so. I will take my place and I intend to keep it. I am very sorry, but you are not going to change my views.

With regard to the status of women, our role is to ensure that women do not fall through the cracks and are no longer victims. Neither victims nor women are the subject of this bill. Women's groups advocating for victims do not want this bill. They are not crazy either. Only pro-life groups want this bill. Do not try to pull the wool over my eyes this morning, it is not going to work.

We must also remember, Mr. Goldring, that the Minister responsible for the Status of Women voted against this bill. As did the parliamentary secretary. If this bill is good, why are they voting against it? Ask yourself that question. They are not crazy. They voted against it because they know the consequences that it could have. Now, you have to walk the walk and stop saying simply that it is not a government bill, that it will not have an impact and that it does not matter because the government is not going to reopen the debate on abortion.

The government is doing it in a very backhanded way; it is extremely underhanded and quite insidious. Four similar bills have been introduced, Mr. Goldring. If you do not want to believe in our good faith and the fact that we just want to defend women, in that case put forward a bill to defend women who are murdered or who have three or four kids at home. They also deserve to be defended. Come on!

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Why don't you go out to Edmonton on this, okay?

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Goldring, I'll just go to Ms. Neville first and then to Ms. Mathyssen.

I understand, but let's not get our emotions high up. We're here to study an issue, and let's study the issue in a logical manner.

Ms. Neville.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

This is an emotional issue, Madam Chair, and we've certainly seen how important this issue is in the explanation or concern expressed—and I share Madame Demers' concern.

You had a draft motion or an amended suggestion here. I would like to hear it again. I do not want to put this matter off. I'd like to bring it to a vote today, whether we move forward with studying the subject matter of it or.... I don't know whether my colleagues would agree or not, but I'd like to deal with it and move on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Ms. Mathyssen, there is a suggestion being made that I reread the changes the clerk has given me, and that if you're in agreement, we will vote on it. I'm going to read those changes again, and if you're not in agreement—because it's your motion—we will bring it back on Tuesday.

[A voice]

No, we're not here on Tuesday.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Sorry, we're not here on Tuesday. We will have to do it today.

We're not here on Tuesday because the clerks and the analyst have to finish that report for your presentation on Wednesday.

[An hon. member]

We could come back for this, though?

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Oh yes, absolutely, you can. That's the committee's prerogative.

Ms. Mathyssen, may I, for your benefit, reread it, and you tell me whether you are in agreement:

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee study the subject matter of injuring or causing the death of an unborn child while committing an offence and its impact on women.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I think it's very important that we vote on this now, but I would like to take into account what Ms. Bennett said and Ms. Demers' concern. So I would like to request a small change:

...study the subject matter of injuring or causing the death of a fetus—

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Of a fetus?

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Yes.

...while committing an offence and its impact on women, and that the committee also consider the impact of similar legislation in other jurisdictions

I want to make the last addition because I think it would give us a more rounded understanding of this bill, not just in the isolation of this Parliament.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

I'm going to re-read the amendment first so that everybody is in sync:

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) the committee study the subject matter of injuring or causing the death of a fetus while committing an offence and its impact on women, and that the committee also study the impact of similar legislation in other jurisdictions.

Do I have the wording right? I need a seconder for the motion.

Ms. Neville.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I so move.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

By “and similar legislation in other jurisdictions”, do you mean in Canada or somewhere else?

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I mean internationally.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

You mean internationally, in Canada and other countries.

So we can do a cross-section of study. Shall I read it or are you all okay now? I will be calling for a vote.

I'll read it again so that we all understand the same thing:

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) the committee study the subject matter of injuring or causing the death of a fetus while committing an offence and its impact on women, and that the committee also study the impact of similar legislation in other international jurisdictions.

I have a seconder for the motion, which is Ms. Neville.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

There has been a suggestion that we have a joint committee meeting with the justice committee. If we want to explore a joint meeting, then we need a motion. So the committee needs to pass a motion that a joint meeting be held with the justice committee to express our concern on Bill C-484.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I think that would be fine.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Okay. The motion is as follows: “That the committee request the clerk to arrange a joint meeting with Justice so as to express the committee's concern on Bill C-484”.

You asked me to repeat it?

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

No, I am listening to the interpretation to be sure that I understand correctly.