Status of Women Committee on June 5th, 2008

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

That is something the clerk will work on.

Madame Deschamps.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Madam Chair, I want to speak along the same lines as Ms. Mathyssen did. I simply want to clarify something Ms. Boucher said.

I understand the principle under which you decided to vote; it is a free vote. Be it a private member's bill or a government bill, once it is passed by the House of Commons, the impact will be as terrible, in my mind. This bill has an impact on who I am and on my soul.

Ms. Boucher, the members of the Standing Committee on the Status of Women have worked so hard. I think that we have developed solidarity with regard to our concerns about the status of women and women's equality. The work that remains to be done—and it must be done— concerns culture. We must change this culture. In my opinion, we can't do this by regressing. A private member's bill or a government bill has the same impact once it is passed. The members of this committee have the duty to take it into consideration.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Goldring.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

I will defer to Mr. Stanton, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Okay, Mr. Stanton.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Mr. Goldring.

I just wonder if the committee would consider, in light of trying to take this forward, just keeping it so general as to simply say, “That pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee study the subject matter of Bill C-484.”

You can't put that in there?

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

No. Can I give you another suggestion, if you don't mind?

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I was just going to say, whatever that is in the middle, “and its potential implications for Canadian women”.

What were you going to say?

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

That's not our bill. We can't touch it.

I'd like to make a suggestion: “That the committee study the impact on women of criminalizing actions that cause death or injury to an unborn child in the context of committing an offence against the mother.”

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Okay, fine. No problem.

He has the floor, and then I'll give it to you, Ms. Bennett.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

If we were to take a step from that, as opposed to “criminalizing actions” and say “to study the impacts of stricter penalities”, because that's really what it is--“stricter penalties for crimes committed against women and the unborn”.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

The subject matter is important.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

We introduced that at the front, Anita. We say the subject matter. We can't refer to the bill.

Let me have a go at this. Carry on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Ms. Bennett.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

I think the issue for me has been that the substance of the bill doesn't matter one bit, meaning if this was seatbelt legislation...this is a ploy used by the anti-choice, pro-life movement across the world to try to get the rights of the unborn child, encadré, put into any piece of legislation they can think up.

What this committee needs to look at is how, state by state by state, the pro-life movement has been using bills such as this to actually put their anti-choice, pro-life agenda into legislation. That's what's dangerous about this bill. I couldn't give a whatever about the actual violence.... It's the rights of the unborn child getting into any piece of legislation. There is a tracking that this committee could do of how this has been done in other jurisdictions. That is the danger of this bill.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

That's a very interesting point.

Ms. Mathyssen, would you like to think about it and try to incorporate it?

Mr. Goldring, you have the floor.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

With all due respect, there seems to be an assumption here that there is a problem with this bill before we even study it. In other words, we're prepared to line up against it as though there is something here.

[An hon. members]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Just a second. The comments that were just made--that it is an attempt to somehow legislate an agenda--were shameful, irrespective of the violence to the mother and the child.

When we go back to Alberta and the recent legislation there that was to allow insurance protection for the child in the third trimester, to bring about some kind of recognition of the pain and suffering to the mother and the child.... The intent of this is to address the concerns of the mother and child, irrespective of the feeling of a greater agenda for other people. I would think the pre-eminent concern here is the mother and the about-to-be-born child, and we don't have anything in our laws at present to address that situation. If we stay focused on the good intention of this bill, that's what it is directed towards and to somehow move it....

I was suggesting that perhaps, leaving aside the bill...but you entered into a statement that went into injury or causing the death of an unborn child while committing an offence. Now, leave “and its impact on women” and this is what we're talking about: injury or causing the death of an unborn child while committing an offence.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Goldring, with all due respect, we're the Standing Committee on the Status of Women. We've just finished “Towards Gender Responsive Budgeting” and we're working on gender issues. When we started the discussion--

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

It must be relevant to the work of the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

When we started the discussion, we said this motion was out of order because it was not ours, that we cannot study anything that's not within our mandate. We said, okay, what's the compromise. The compromise is that in light of a lot of women's groups fearing the impact of this bill, it behooves the Standing Committee on the Status of Women to do a study, not of the bill--

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

But enter into it with the expectation that you can have a determination but not have a presupposed outcome before you even discuss it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

We won't, because our study never has presupposed outcomes anyway. We study; we bring in witnesses from all across the spectrum. I think that's the way committees are supposed to function. As a committee, I think we have functioned very well and have understood the needs of women.

Mr. Stanton is next, and then we'll go to Madame Boucher and Madame Demers.

Mr. Stanton.