Status of Women Committee on Dec. 4th, 2007

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

Thank you.

Ms. Hutchison, please. You had your hand up.

[Carmela Hutchison]

Thanks.

Many times it's been suggested--fundraising, family, and friends. Unfortunately, when you are someone who comes from a very disadvantaged situation, as Ms. McIvor and I do, that isn't a possibility.

My husband and I put each other through school. We've had tremendous support from the good woman sitting behind me, my mother-in-law, but in terms of approaching organizations to try to get funding for the medical treatment I need....

I have a mental disorder that no psychiatrist in the province of Alberta will treat. Foothills Hospital will not see me in the OT department to even assess me for a walker.

We're supposed to have universal health care, and because I have a traumatic brain injury and a mental illness, I'm denied brain injury rehabilitation. Medical fees for me in this country are as serious as for someone in the U.S. There are no qualified personnel to care for me. I've got to suck it up and I've got to deal with it on my own. You should be applauding that.

The reality is I ended up in the leadership of every organization I approached for assistance as to how I might help myself. That is how I've come to this table. And while it's been a privilege to come to this table, also our organizations are pressed so badly with every woman....

As Shelagh said, I too am privileged. Even in my disadvantage, I have a husband, a home, and a vehicle. But every ounce of every day--and I go as hard as I can, to the detriment of my health--is in the service of the women of this country. There are people who phone me at 2 a.m. There are people who phone me at six in the morning. There are people who phone me to fall asleep at night. There are people whose tears I dry, whose houses I try to help clean.

We are so maxed out just trying to service the people coming to our door that we can't even think about fundraising.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

Thank you. That's time.

We have to go on to Ms. Davidson, please.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank each of the presenters for being here with us today.

Ms. Day, I apologize. I had another committee beforehand, so I did miss part of your presentation, but I'd like to thank all the rest for being here and sharing their thoughts and ideas with us.

We know that this issue has been studied by about three other committees as well. We felt strongly, because we're the Standing Committee on the Status of Women, that we needed to hear the issues here firsthand, as well as study the reports from the other committees.

We've heard certainly a diversity of ideas here today. We've heard some things that were a bit surprising in some ways. We've heard that perhaps the CCP wasn't the be-all and end-all, but it did serve a purpose. We've heard that it was not accountable, that some people who they may have felt should have got funding didn't, that it funded only narrow views.

But the thing that I think I heard today that intrigued me the most was from Ms. Atcheson. I think you said that perhaps we need to separate the principles from the details of the design—if I captured correctly what I thought I heard you say. Could you please elaborate some more on that?

[Elizabeth Atcheson]

I'll try. It's only something I've just started thinking about.

Let me say, first of all, we can and do raise money for the work that we do. However, it is extremely difficult to raise money for litigation. I've been doing it for 30 years. It takes people who are highly, highly committed, and there's a very small pool of people in that category.

Let me go to the issue of principles from design. You have to look really hard in the blue book, in the main estimates, to find a program at $3 million. This is a very small program in federal terms. In fact, we've probably spent more money on the committees looking at it than it would have cost to run it for this year, which is kind of shocking.

If in fact there's value in the effort—and that is certainly our argument and the argument of many people who aren't perhaps as close to it as we are but who look at the law or who look at these processes—then there's lots of room to expand it.

I disagree that it's not accountable. I think it has been very accountable for the money and I think that's entirely provable, but if there are accountability mechanisms, we have that expertise to get the right accountability mechanisms. We have expertise about appointments, to get the right appointments. We can do all these things if in fact we think there's a value in making sure that people who would otherwise not be able to can argue things that are of significance to the country.

I'd like to go back to a question. Our cases come up through the court system. They're funded in whatever way they are by parties. A lot of the work that we've done has been done by interventions, and that is because parties don't have a legal obligation or a professional obligation to speak to all of the issues that are raised in a case. For instance, in these criminal law cases, the parties—the crown and the accused—have no legal or professional obligation to think about how this affects the situation in which thousands and thousands of women find themselves.

What we need to do is think, does the court effort have value? Is it of value to be able to go to court, to be able to identify things that the court needs to know that are within its ambit, in a fair process and a process where the court has to hear from all parties equitably? If there's value in that, then let's take our public administration expertise and our public policy expertise and find a better way to do it.

I think inevitably that means expanding it. I don't happen to think that's a bad idea. I think $3 million in the federal system is a grain of sand.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you very much.

I know that we decided to pass unanimously the motion from Ms. Demers to hear people on this issue. We were asked if we knew of names we could put forward so people could come and give witness. Of course, there has been no lack of names coming forward. As a matter of fact, I think we've seen most of you people before at the status of women committee at one time or another. Getting a balance was a difficult thing to do.

So I thank each and every one of you for coming out today and speaking with us. I think you've given us a perspective that we needed to hear. I think the majority of you have given very balanced presentations.

I guess, from the Conservative side, we had a difficult time putting names forward, so I appreciate hearing from each of you.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

Thank you very much.

We have to move on to the last round, and it has to be for two minutes each--that's for the question and the response--so please be succinct.

We'll go to Ms. Minna, please.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

First, I want to say thank you for coming today.

The words “radical feminist” have been thrown around this morning. I have to say that I never thought of myself as radical, but certainly I've always thought of myself as a feminist. I suppose at times in this room I'm a radical, as well.

But you know what? Without us or without the famous five, who were very radical compared to me, we wouldn't even have the right to vote today, probably, and we wouldn't even be persons, and who knows what else we wouldn't have.

Actually, after listening to some presentations on the tax structure in the last couple of days while looking at gender budgeting, we also found that the whole basis of the tax structure is quite systemically racist and discriminatory against women. Maybe we should do a charter challenge on that as a whole. I think that would be a fun one to do, quite frankly.

Having said all that, I guess what I'm saying, really, is that we know that the problems are there. We know that the systemic problem of discrimination against women in this country is alive and well and exists. We know that government policies--federal, provincial, municipal, and what have you--can miss the mark and create disadvantages, unintended or otherwise. And there are still nuggets there from previous legislation that need to be addressed.

We know that “no means no” would never have happened, and I think that's something we would never want to go back on.

For me, obviously, the court challenges program is of fundamental importance in continuing to give women and all minorities in this country an ability to defend themselves.

I guess I have more of a comment than I have questions, partly because I think, to some degree, a lot of the things we've discussed here this morning..... I have here a whole list of cases that affected only women, because I went on the website of the charter challenge program itself. I didn't even get cases that affect the other minorities overall, just women. There is a whole slew here, which I'm not going to try to put in the record.

I guess my only question to all of you would simply be this: Looking forward rather than backward, what would you do? Let's reinstate the program, yes. But what else would you do with it? Actually, that's even more important to me at this point.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

We're at two minutes.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Sorry. Can you answer quickly?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Danielle Bélisle]

Maybe we could do three minutes each.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

Okay. Ms. Day.

[Shelagh Day]

Put the funding back, extend it to provincial jurisdictions, and add a lot more money.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

We'll go to Mr. Comuzzi.

[Gwendolyn Landolt]

Madam Chair, obviously we do not think it should be reinstated. It's a discriminatory, biased organization, and it should be scrapped. It was rightfully scrapped, because it's not open to all women and to all people. And it is really a running sore in the face of democracy to allow it to continue.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Comuzzi.

[Joe Comuzzi, Conservative, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

When I woke up this morning, I didn't think I'd end up here when I came to work, but I'm glad that I did come.

The first three questions in my office this morning were about the absence of funding. Someone called in about the reduced Elizabeth Fry allotment from the federal government. The second one was a complaint about the AIDS $15 million, and the third one was something about.... I forget what. Anyway, that's why I decided to come this morning.

I was really interested in Ms. Minna's first round of questioning to Professor Buss. She asked a question that was not answered. The professor had made some allegations, and I think you were trying to show some background factual information on why you would make these allegations. I think that's what you were trying to say.

What I would have liked is to have heard the case law. I don't expect you to give it to me now.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I'm sorry, Madam Chair, if I could--

[Joe Comuzzi, Conservative, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Just allow me for a minute, Maria.

If I could have that case law to back up your accusations, that would be very helpful.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

No, no. You can't just put words in my mouth, I'm sorry.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

Thank you, Mr. Comuzzi.

Ms. Minna needs a moment.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I appreciate what you're saying, but with all due respect, that was not my question.

My question was simply, what other cases are on the docket, in progress, that cannot be fulfilled.

[Joe Comuzzi, Conservative, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

We're asking the same thing.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

No, you were talking about something else.

Thank you.

[Joe Comuzzi, Conservative, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

You and I very seldom agree, so, that's good.