Evidence of meeting #8 for Status of Women in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was things.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Rhonda Sharp  Professor of Economics, Hawke Research Institute for Sustainable Societies, University of South Australia
Lissa Donner  United Nations Platform for Action Committee Manitoba
Armine Yalnizyan  Director of Research, Community Social Planning Council of Toronto

4:25 p.m.

Director of Research, Community Social Planning Council of Toronto

Armine Yalnizyan

I'm not sure I should go first, because I think you've heard what I said. I think the primary things the Conservative government has done in the last two budgets are to allocate $191 billion of surplus in the coming years to tax cuts and $37 billion worth of surplus to debt reduction, and that will do nothing, absolutely nothing, to bring women into greater equality with men, because we need spending; we need public investments. That's what women benefit from. I think I've said my piece on that.

You heard last week that the benefits from tax cuts flow primarily to men. As I said earlier, gender budgeting is, at the very least, a way of showing that you're not getting the perverse results of advantaging those who are already advantaged with more public resources.

I would really welcome any kind of discussion in this committee, where such good work gets done, on how we can utilize surplus revenues. You don't even need to tax people to make things better for people.

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Johanne Deschamps Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Ms. Donner.

4:25 p.m.

United Nations Platform for Action Committee Manitoba

Lissa Donner

Thank you very much.

I want to second what Armine has said.

Just to add to that, we're here talking about gender budgeting, and I particularly used housing as an example because I wanted committee members to understand that even in those areas that appear gender neutral on the surface, areas you think have nothing to do with sex or with gender, there are often differential impacts on women and men. The point of gender budgeting is to think about those things up front.

For example, this committee could recommend that the Department of Finance be required to prepare analyses of the differential impacts on women and men of new budget initiatives. That would show compliance with Canada's existing commitments under the platform for action.

This goes back to your earlier comment and question, Mr. Pearson, about gender budgeting for dummies. It's not really that hard. In the Department of Finance there are very skilled experts, as Armine has said, who are expert at figuring out who is going to gain and who is going to lose by new government initiatives, whether those are expenditures or whether those are tax reductions.

I think this committee should understand that under our commitments through the Beijing Platform for Action, Canada is required to consider the differential impacts of budgetary initiatives on women and men. As a taxpaying Canadian I would be most happy if you would recommend that the Department of Finance simply did that.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Patricia Davidson

You have 30 seconds left.

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Johanne Deschamps Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

What I retained more from the comments of Ms. Sharp, who is speaking to us by videoconference, is that her government—they've changed governments too—took advantage of the fact that the budget had been established and influenced by groups of women or by women.

Did I understand correctly, Ms. Sharp?

4:25 p.m.

Professor of Economics, Hawke Research Institute for Sustainable Societies, University of South Australia

Dr. Rhonda Sharp

What I was saying was that in terms of the first 12-year wave, the model we used was one in which gender-responsive budgeting was driven by the women's policy offices within government. When the political and economic situation changed in 1996--and this is what you have to be wary of in terms of how you design these exercises, and I'll say something more about that in a minute--the new federal government cut the women's offices by 40%. That was the end of that story, so you have to have a structure that is going to be sustainable.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Patricia Davidson

I'm sorry, but your time is up, Professor Sharp. We're going to have to move on to the next questioner. Thank you.

We'll now move on for seven minutes to Mrs. Grewal, please.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, ladies, for your presentations. Certainly they were very informative and very interesting.

I have a question for Ms. Yalnizyan.

Ms. Yalnizyan, in your report Canada's Commitment to Equality: A Gender Analysis of the Last 10 Federal Budgets (1995-2004), you referred to a 1995 Liberal government promise to undertake gender analysis of all its microeconomic policies and its budgets, but then you say that the government never followed through with its commitment. Could you please comment on that period?

4:30 p.m.

Director of Research, Community Social Planning Council of Toronto

Armine Yalnizyan

I wish I could report on something different--that is, a partisan difference--but I'm afraid that both governments we have had since 1995 have been unable to meet the Beijing commitments. That does tar both the Liberals and the Conservatives with the same brush. However, I'm hopeful that we can work with either the Conservatives or the Liberals, or whoever is forming the government, to actually make substantive change and use these incredible surpluses. It's the opportunity not of a generation, Madam Grewal, but the opportunity of economic history in Canada to use a portion of those surpluses to make life better for men and women.

I would completely concur that after three years of cuts from 1995 to 1998, when the Liberal government had the opportunity to reinvest in the programs they had cut, they did not do that, but neither has the Conservative government. Nobody gets off free on this one.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

As a member of Parliament, I have been approached by literally hundreds of my constituents—men, women, young girls—demanding that the federal government reduce taxes. In your opinion, if the federal government were to implement gender budgeting, could tax cuts be justified over new spending programs?

4:30 p.m.

Director of Research, Community Social Planning Council of Toronto

Armine Yalnizyan

Madame Grewal, I don't know what conversations you have with your constituents. I know that by and large, in the work we do through the Social Planning Council, which is my constituency, nobody is asking for tax cuts. People are asking for more service.

I don't know if you recall this. I live in Toronto, and about six weeks ago we had a huge political fight about which community centres, rinks, and pools we were going to cut; we decided to increase taxes to avoid those cuts, because they were happening in areas where in fact we are trying to stop kids from shooting each other to death. There's not enough stuff for them to do, so you need to keep those centres open.

I think the Canadian population is getting to the place where...I'm not saying they would pay more, but they don't want to see service cuts, and I don't think you can keep cutting taxes at this stage without actually threatening loss of service. That is not what Canadians want.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Would you like to answer that?

4:30 p.m.

United Nations Platform for Action Committee Manitoba

Lissa Donner

I would. Thank you very much for the opportunity, Ms. Grewal.

In this exercise we're talking about incorporating gender analysis into the budgeting process. If this committee were successful in requiring that the Department of Finance incorporate gender-based analysis into its analysis of new federal initiatives, it would become very clear that tax cuts benefit men more than they benefit women, and that therefore, in introducing those kinds of across-the-board tax cuts, Canada is not living up to its commitment under the Beijing Platform for Action. There's a very direct connection here.

People talk about gender-based budgeting or gender-based analysis in budgeting or gender budgets as if the subject is abstract and far away. It's very nitty-gritty, and that's what UNPAC tried to show and what they did show with the workshops they held across Manitoba—rural, urban, and north—with grassroots women. These things affect women very directly.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

In a previous submission to this committee we were told that about 60 countries have undertaken gender-responsive budgeting initiatives.

Are you familiar with any of these initiatives, and can you offer any insight into lessons that may be taken from them?

4:30 p.m.

Professor of Economics, Hawke Research Institute for Sustainable Societies, University of South Australia

Dr. Rhonda Sharp

I'm familiar with many of them, and in my presentation I tried to go to the core of some of the key lessons that we keep in mind. I can't emphasize political commitment enough; I can't emphasize the diverse role of actors who have to be engaged in this process.

One of the earlier speakers said let's not, in effect, get distracted about gender-responsive budgeting; what is at the heart of this is implementing policies that do remove poverty, that do promote gender equality, and so on.

The other thing about these probably 60 or 70 initiatives—we have trouble counting them--is that they're incredibly diverse. Part of it is that they're diverse in style, diverse in terms of who's involved, their politics, and so on. But they're also diverse in what they're trying to achieve, which requires each country to ask, what is it that we're trying to achieve here?

You already have examples in your country that are trying to achieve certain things by gender-responsive budgeting. Take the earlier presentation on engaging poor women and trying to raise awareness about housing; that is an initiative. You might in your country end up with a multiplicity of initiatives that could be backed by your treasury, your ministry of finance—I'm not sure what you call them in Canada—being required to assess new expenditures.

New expenditures aren't a big proportion of the budget, so it's not such a big exercise. But it is interesting, if you have large budget surpluses, to be able to focus on where the surplus money is going. I think that's politically crucial, because it at least looks as though—it's not true—you're not taking it away from anybody else but are distributing the benefits.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Patricia Davidson

Thank you very much. Your time is up now, Mrs. Grewal, sorry.

We're moving now to Mrs. Mathyssen, for seven minutes, please.

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the witnesses. We're very grateful for the expertise that you bring to this committee.

I want to start with Ms. Donner's very impressive brief in terms of its clarity. It seems to me that you in Manitoba began in a very pragmatic way and set out a very clear process that seems quite workable. I'd like you to comment on that.

One of the things we keep hearing is that gender budgeting is so complex, so difficult, but it seems that this is a very clear process. So I'd like you to assess the process so far and tell us whether or not you feel it has been successful, and categorize it.

As well, who else needs to be consulted? Who do we need to talk to?

4:35 p.m.

United Nations Platform for Action Committee Manitoba

Lissa Donner

Okay. Those are a lot of questions. I'll do my best to speak quickly.

I was the lead consultant retained by the province to do the work with policy staff across departments, and then they had a competitive process and four pilot projects were selected.

I think we've made a good start, and the feedback from the department involved in the pilot projects has been quite positive. Ministers have not yet been briefed, and I'm not in a position to say what steps Manitoba is going to take next. I'll just say stay tuned, but I think feedback on those pilots has been very good.

But I think that's a first step. It was just a first step, and now we really need to dig in and figure out what to do next. Certainly my advice, for what it's worth, will be basically the same as I've given you. I sound like a broken record. Consider the differential impacts of women and men on the initiatives that you take through the budget.

You may not be able to do them all in the first year, but pick the big ones. Governments have priorities. Every government comes in saying, “These are our main planks; this is what the people have elected us to do.” If governments were only to subject those top three or five priority items to analysis of their differential impacts on women and men, that would be a big step forward.

How do you do that? First, you have to train up staff in government, because staff may not have the skills to do that. You have to work collaboratively with non-governmental organizations, because that's where a lot of the skills and expertise rest. Then you have to bring them together and do the work. You have to understand that it's really not—and I hope I don't offend any rocket scientists here—rocket science. We committed in 1995 to do it, so we should just start already.

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON

Okay, thank you.

This is a general question. We talk a lot about the cost of programs. You hear it constantly, the cost of bringing forward a national program. I'd like to talk about the cost of poverty. What's the cost of not addressing the inequities that we see in the current budgeting systems?

4:40 p.m.

Director of Research, Community Social Planning Council of Toronto

Armine Yalnizyan

Can I just say how easy it is to do a gender budget analysis on tax incidence? You can follow the money. You can do “what's the impact of a tax cut like this”, given the staff to do it. Finance probably does it, but doesn't make it public—there's a good chance of that.

I don't think that's the tough one. We know that “who's the beneficiary of spending” gets a bit tougher to do.

We have really good analysis on human capital development through educational stuff. It's a straightforward cost-benefit analysis. It's done for individuals: you plunk down x amount of dollars for your post-secondary education and you see a stream of revenue for the rest of your life. That's very classic cost-benefit analysis.

We can tell that if we invest an x amount publicly, it should have a macro-impact. You can do that through input-output and forecasting modelling, all sorts of stuff. There are lots of gimmicks you can use to indicate what a dollar of expenditure on education will be. Of course, most Canadians identify access to education as the primary pathway out of poverty into opportunity for better-paid jobs.

We could probably say what the bang for the buck would be on child care; on better access to ESL, for example, in schools; and on post-secondary education. That would be pretty easy to do. And we know how to do it on public infrastructure, because we do it primarily in capital investments, with a yield curve of flows of benefits to a society, which is the only macro thing we do.

Where we can't do it is on social spending, because there are too many third-party effects. If I spend $100 billion on health care this year, how do I know what the impact of it is?

The only way you don't know is if you don't spend it. There's no control group. You'd have to have a control group and say, “This group got health care and this group didn't; let's take a look at the impact on the two.”

It's a very messy area, and I wouldn't suggest you spend a lot of time on it. We know that if you spend more on health care, people are healthier and they produce more. You don't need to twist yourself up into knots to quantify the scalar at which those public investments are good.

It's more difficult to say what the public impact of employment insurance is in actually meeting people's needs when they lose their job. But we know that it's counter-cyclical.

We've been riding this 12-year unbroken economic expansion phase. What happens when we enter a recession? We have stripped all those economic stabilizers. We know from the 1920s and 1930s that one of the ways to power through a recession is to keep people's purchasing power up. That's why you have things such as unemployment insurance.

We've conducted a social experiment whose costs we don't actually know until we hit the next recession. Right now it looks as though, if we hit a recession, it's going to be self-fulfilling; it's going to start triggering all sorts of multiplier effects because people can't spent money. You can't estimate those costs, but you know from history not to do the things we've done in the last decade.

It really isn't rocket science. We know what the macro-economic effects are. I wish we'd fix some of them, already, because we seem to have found $10 billion more a year for the military, and we've found unbelievable amounts of money for roads and bridges—not all over the country, but at the border.

If we have that kind of money and can throw away money to the tune of $191 billion on tax cuts and $37 billion on debt, can we please fix the things that we know are going to make people's lives better and smooth out the economy, should we hit that bump on the road, which looks as though it could happen in the next calendar year?

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Patricia Davidson

Thank you very much.

Ms. Mathyssen, your time is up. We'll now move to round two, for interventions of five minutes.

Ms. Minna, please.

December 5th, 2007 / 4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Firstly, I thank all of you for coming. I sense two things, I guess, and even within myself and to some degree with all of you in this room. One is that we should have done this a long time ago, so there's impatience. The other is that we have the knowledge, we know what we need, and there is expertise among our own community and society, so we need to move on.

I want to ask a couple of questions. I agree with a lot of what has been said.

Firstly, to our guest from Australia, from the 12 years you had when gender budgeting was being done, can you just very quickly choose one area and tell us what it looked like—I guess not what it looked like, but where it made a major difference in women's lives during that 12 years, and what has happened since?

I mean very quickly--I have only five minutes, and I apologize, because I want to go to another question as well.

Twelve years is a long time, so presumably it would have had some impact in some areas.

4:45 p.m.

Professor of Economics, Hawke Research Institute for Sustainable Societies, University of South Australia

Dr. Rhonda Sharp

I think the major impact initially was to just genuinely raise awareness that there were differential gender impacts across the policy spectrum, and people took that up in various ways. We did have impacts like debates around the dependent spouse rebate, where a tax rebate was paid primarily to men for having a dependent spouse. We got Treasury to admit to the gender defects of that, and at the end of that period it was abolished and paid out as children's benefits.

We were able to reinforce the point that if you pay payments to the primary caregiver, which is usually the woman, it's more likely to be spent on the children, so we were successful in building that into the general policy apparatus.

Each year these budget documents published a whole raft of new expenditure initiatives for women and girls, so it gave us some sort of tracking mechanism. We were able to improve the quality of our data. You can't do gender budget analysis without improving your data, and that had ramifications for other things.

Having said all that, it is not just the focus on the budget in whatever constructed form that brings about the results. It has to be very broad based. It's not just about saying to Treasury, you do that and things will be fixed. They won't.

It has to be integral to every policy debate and the work of government and NGOs and so on.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Thank you very much. I appreciate that. I think we need to talk to you a little bit more. Maybe today doesn't give us enough time to really get more information. After all, 12 years is a long time, and there's a wealth of information that you would have.

To some degree, you've actually answered my second question, which was about how more recently we had a national child care program. That's been cancelled and replaced with a $1,200 taxable credit or money going to families. We have still a lot of tax credits. I think the tax expenditures are worth about $25 billion. I have two questions. One, for those who are familiar with our system, Ms. Donner and Ms. Yalnizyan, what would you do with the $1,200 and with the child care program? How would you solve those two in terms of changing?

The other is what I would like to suggest is that we start analyzing our tax expenditures with a gender base and start seeing which ones we need to change into refundable or into something else other than tax expenditures, and are there specific ones that you would start with?

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Patricia Davidson

We just have a very short time for answers.