Status of Women Committee on June 9th, 2009

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I would now like to call the meeting to order and report to the committee that we did have a press conference to table our report on EI. I tabled it in the House today and we had a press conference on it. I just thought you should know that we just came from there.

We are currently discussing an amendment made by Anita Neville to the motion by Candice Hoeppner. I will reread the amendment for you. It says:

That the Standing Committee on the Status of Women calls on the government to support First Nations women living on reserve, as stipulated in the “Declaration of the United Nations on the Rights of Indigenous People”, by conducting consultations as per its legal duty to consult with those affected by marital breakdown. This should include First Nations women and families, First Nations communities, Regional Aboriginal Associations and National Aboriginal Organizations. The consultations should ensure that an appropriate resolution to the issue of matrimonial real property is found that meets the needs of all those who are affected.

Shall I read it in French?

All right.

That the Standing Committee on the Status of Women calls on the government to support First Nations women living on reserve, as stipulated in the Declaration of the United Nations on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, by conducting consultations as per its legal duty to consult with those affected by marital breakdown. This should include First Nations women and families, First Nations communities, Regional Aboriginal Associations and National Aboriginal Organizations. The consultations should ensure that an appropriate resolution to the issue of matrimonial real property is found that meets the needs of all those who are affected.

I shall open up the discussion.

Ms. Hoeppner.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

The current motion as amended is entirely different from my original motion and I therefore cannot support it.

First of all, my original motion calls on all of Parliament to work together for this common goal. The reason I purposely put all of Parliament is that I believe we, as elected officials, have an obligation to work together to ensure that all Canadians are treated equally under the law.

Secondly, and just as important, my original motion calls for immediate action, not more consultations, as Ms. Neville's amendment does. Aboriginal groups have been consulted by this government. One hundred and three consultation sessions in 76 sites occurred in Canada. In fact, over $8 million was provided to the Native Women's Association of Canada and the Assembly of First Nations to carry out consultations.

I believe that over the years many of my colleagues, even on this committee, who have been members of Parliament for much longer than I have, talked about and discussed this issue with aboriginal people and with aboriginal women. I believe the time for talk is over. We need to act, and we need to act immediately, to ensure that aboriginal women have the same rights that all Canadians do. I will not support this motion.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Ms. Zarac.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

On Ms. Hoeppner's motion, she calls on Parliament to support it. I think Parliament already voiced itself against it, so I cannot support something that Parliament has voted against already.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Sorry, Candice.

Is there anybody else?

We're not going to debate back and forth. I'll come back to you if you want to speak.

Is there any further debate on the amendment?

Anita.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I spoke to it at length before, Madam Chair. I'm repeating myself. I believe the issue of matrimonial real property is an important issue.

I agree with Ms. Hoeppner that a consultation did take place under the leadership of Wendy Grant-John. At that time, Ms. Grant-John felt that it could have been a more extensive consultation. While they met with some members of the community, they might have met with others. But I guess the most important aspect of it is that what Ms. Hoeppner is recommending in her motion is the antithesis of what Ms. Grant-John recommended in her very substantial, very thoughtful report as it relates to matrimonial real property for first nations women on reserve.

I believe it's time to move forward with this issue, but I believe it's time to move forward with this issue and do it right. To do it right is not to impose what we think is best for aboriginal women, but what they think is best. Quite clearly, we've heard that what the government is proposing is not what they think is best.

I'll leave it at that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Patricia.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

I just want to reiterate what my colleague has said. I also cannot support this motion.

Those who have been sitting around this table--

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Do you mean the motion as amended?

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

The amendment.

There has been discussion. There has been consultation. There are issues. And the issue is an extremely important one: there is absolutely no reason why aboriginal women should not have the same rights as other women in Canada. To think there are people sitting in this Parliament who don't support that is an abhorrent thought to me.

I absolutely will not be supporting it. There has been consultation not only by this government but by previous governments. There has been consultation for years on this issue.

The time to act is now. The time for talk is over. We need to do something.

I will not be supporting the amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Madam Chair, I did want to point out that there are 640 first nations communities across the country and they have a variety of needs. You cannot homogenize the needs of the first nation community in Nova Scotia with that in Victoria. They have different needs.

I recall very vividly that when we were looking at matrimonial real property rights, those who came from the first nations leadership said they did not want to have something imposed. They did not want provincial law to be imposed on them.

This talk about being treated equally under the law, it doesn't work. We talk about equality but we don't talk about equity. Equity is making sure that you have given and considered the differences in community needs in order to make sure that you're being fair. Despite that, the legislation that is currently before the House imposes provincial law.

So I think very clearly we need to stand up in this committee for those women and first nations leaders who were very clear, unequivocally clear, about the process. Three months was not nearly enough and they needed far more time than they got. The amendment that we see before us I think addresses that. I will be supporting it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Ms. Demers.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Madam Chair, I will agree that consultations were held with First Nations. Meetings were held with First Nations representatives and they were consulted.

However, their responses were not taken into consideration. The responses given by First Nations women, the concerns they expressed and the recommendations they made were not taken into account in the process of drafting this legislation.

Consequently, I will not be able to support this motion unless it includes the amendment put forward by Ms. Neville. This amendment will ensure that not only are full, in-depth consultations held, but also that the findings will be taken into consideration in the drafting of a bill that reflects the needs of First Nations women, not the needs we think should be met because that would be the best approach to take.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Madam McLeod.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

We are talking about consultation, but I think what we have forgotten about, and this bill has not met, are the visions and goals of individual communities. I think it's really important to remember that the bill was designed to give immediate protection and then enable all the communities to move forward with their own plan. I could support an amendment that would say, let's support the individual communities in moving forward with developing their plan under this legislation. I think that would be much more appropriate. But as the Government of Canada and as parliamentarians, to walk away from a basic human right knowing that communities have opportunities, I just find it quite stunning, actually.

[An hon. member]

Hear, hear!

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Madam Boucher.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I will not be supporting the amendment, simply because in my opinion First Nations women have the same rights as all other Canadians, and I have visited several reserves in my capacity of parliamentary secretary. For no other reason than that, I will be voting against the motion. I think we are spinning our wheels. These women have the same rights as all other Canadians.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Ms. O'Neill-Gordon.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

I won't be supporting the motion as amended. I reiterate my colleagues' words, that it's time to move and do something.

I have three reserves in my riding, and just last week I met with a table of women who are looking for action and not just consultation all the time. So for that reason I won't be supporting it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Ms. Neville.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Should this motion pass, I hope the government will take note that the committee is calling on the government to take action to support moving forward on matrimonial real property, but to support it in a way that aboriginal women want it supported. We've heard many times, through Wendy Grant-John's report and several other forums, that they want it moved forward, but aboriginal women want it done in cooperation and in consultation with their views.

What I'm extraordinarily struck by in this discussion is the fact that we have heard from aboriginal women, in a whole variety of forums, on what they need and what they want for their communities. They want schools for their children. They want adequate housing. I'm thinking of what's going on in St. Theresa Point in the province of Manitoba right now, which is very much an outcome of crowded housing and inadequate water. They want opportunities for their children. They want opportunities for themselves.

Aboriginal women know what they want, yet we're hearing that we know better. We'll tell them what's better for them and we'll do it.

That's not the way to go. Nobody wants to have something imposed upon them as a priority when they know what their needs and priorities are.

I hope the government will take action. I hope the government will move forward on this issue. I hope they will do it right. I hope they will do it by listening to and consulting with the communities, but not telling them what's best for them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Ms. Hoeppner.