Status of Women Committee on Oct. 6th, 2009

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Monsieur Desnoyers.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Welcome.

First, as long as we're patting ourselves on the back I want to highlight the Bloc Québécois' efforts. In Quebec, we have worked hard to tell people about the Guaranteed Income Supplement. As you said, it is based on the income tax returns of seniors. But this isn't easy to do. People need to be informed. Unfortunately, we must tell you that they're not really well-informed about this.

When we look at the wage gaps that currently exist between men and women in Canada, we see that they are about 28% to 30%, which is significant. In your opinion what impact does this have on women's retirement? We know that women often occupy precarious employment part-time or temporary jobs. Often they lose a permanent job and wind up in such employment, even if they represent the largest proportion of the working population in Canada. I know that these are projections, but perhaps it would be—

[Thomas Shepherd]

One of the interesting things about the pension system is that those with somewhat lower earnings actually get a higher level of benefit from the public system. Given that the system aims to allow people to have a generally smooth standard of living, people at lower income levels actually, because they get more from the public system, tend to have higher income replacement rates in some brackets. So lower salary doesn't necessarily mean less pension. Sometimes it makes it easier to achieve an adequate pension at a lower earnings level.

On the issue of precarious work--and we tried to look into that a bit--

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

We know that current government pension programs correspond almost exactly to the poverty line. You said so yourselves, additional benefits need to be added to this in order to have a dignified and sufficient retirement program for women, since they are the ones who, quite often, wind up in such difficult situations.

So I will repeat my question. I don't want to know if the status quo is adequate. The current project with regard to the economic situation will have an impact, even in the near future, on women, including young women, who are currently on the labour market.

Stats Can is one saying all this, by the way.

[Thomas Shepherd]

The salary difference, though, is.... The public system is not just providing a base for those with low income. The Canada Pension Plan is a pension program that replaces earnings. What I can tell you is that when you look at retirement income replacement rates in terms of retirement income as a percentage of pre-retirement income, the levels that you see from statistics and data--and you could invite them as well--show that even women with lower earnings levels have had comparable replacement rates--so have been making up some of the gaps that have been left by the public system through pensions and so on.

On the issue of the effect of the recession, as I did note, for those with a registered pension plan, women are now slightly more likely to have a defined benefit plan, which is less affected by market trends.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have one minute, give or take.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

As I mentioned women now find themselves without access to RRSPs. In fact, they find themselves holding temporary or part-time employment, and these jobs are not the best paid. Often, these jobs only pay minimum wage or slightly more. Consequently, it is not common for them to invest in a retirement plan.

So what is precarious employment to you?

[Dominique La Salle]

I will respond by talking about changes proposed to the Canada Pension Plan that will allow people to get their pension. Currently, when you get your pension, you can no longer continue to contribute to the plan. We are changing all that. Individuals will be able, at an age they determine, to begin receiving their pension while continuing to work and contribute to improve their lives. They will be able to get their pensions—perhaps not an astronomical amount, but a base amount nonetheless—while continuing to earn income.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Before the age of 60?

[Dominique La Salle]

Starting at age 60, individuals can receive amounts under the Canada Pension Plan or CPP. The full pension is available starting at age 65; you can get a surplus if you start after the age of 65 and you get less if you start before. It is based on life expectancy, simply to be fair from an actuarial point of view. This change will, I believe, ensure much greater flexibility with regard to the jobs people work prior to retirement.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

If I am not mistaken, you are saying that people need to work until they're 90 in order to get a good pension.

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Mr. Desnoyers.

Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I've noted that there have been some congratulations going around, but modesty prevents me from saying that Stanley Knowles, CCF and NDP MP, was the one who worked very hard to establish a Canada pension plan in the first place.

I want to talk about some specific groups among seniors who are likely to find their pension and retirement incomes inadequate. These include seniors who are immigrants, aboriginals, women, and those who live alone. Are there particular steps to take to ensure the adequacy of their income in retirement? What do we need to do in these specific cases?

[Dominique La Salle]

With a lot of outreach activities work—you just enumerated priority populations that are the subject of outreach activities—when we sign a new international social security agreement, we reach out to associations. For example, there is the agreement that just came into force on October 1 with Poland. We organized sessions with Polish community groups across the country, some of which were extremely well attended, with 1,000 people showing up to hear about what it would mean for them, what it would do, etc.

We're making some efforts to increase awareness of financial abuse. For example, the government launched a campaign last summer. This campaign is important. The campaign is on the airwaves right now.

There's no silver bullet, if you like, for this. The programs are there. They're not badly designed. They are quite effective for poorer Canadians, by international measures. Are we reaching everyone? I cannot tell you that we are. There's more work to do.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

It's something I hadn't thought of, but I'm quite interested in financial abuse of seniors and their being taken advantage of and defrauded of their pension incomes. Is there any sense of how often that happens?

[Dominique La Salle]

That's the thing with the issue of elder abuse; it takes many forms. It's under-reported and there's a taboo of sorts around it. That's why the government is making an effort here. It was the subject of discussion at federal-provincial meetings of the forum of ministers responsible for seniors. Senator LeBreton is the co-chair of the forum, where there is a lot of good collaboration on issues of interest to seniors, with all the provinces involved in a concerted effort. The first stage or first approach, if you like, was to raise awareness so that people would be aware there might be abuse.

There are other activities done with professionals in various organizations who may be at the front lines, such as bank tellers, nurses, doctors, lawyers, and so on, who may see a situation where there's abuse.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

It would be people such as the home care nurse or organizations like CARP, or those kinds of things?

[Dominique La Salle]

Yes, we're working with the national organizations.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have less than a minute, Irene, but go for it.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

All right.

I wanted to pick up on the question begun by Monsieur Desnoyers. He asked how we would define precarious employment. What are some of the policy options that might alleviate the poverty those who rely on precarious employment might face in their senior years?

[Thomas Shepherd]

Just to add one thing on precarious employment, which Dominique mentioned in his remarks, when you look at the public system, the OAS, GIS, as well as CPP are available if you're self-employed and you pay the full employer-employee contribution. So those individuals do have access to vehicles.

And there's just one other thing to note here. With the introduction of tax-free savings accounts—and the Department of Finance might want to comment on this—people have an additional non-employment-related $5,000 a year they can contribute. The capital gains there aren't taxed, and when you withdraw those moneys, they don't affect your GIS. So you do have a significant additional amount of room and a vehicle to use there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

Sylvie Boucher.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Good afternoon everyone.

I will be sharing my time with Bruce.

Everyone is handing out bouquets: I too will hand out bouquets to us. As you know, today is a great day for our government. Our Minister of Finance was internationally recognized, proof that our government is on the right track. I think this is exceptional, particularly at such times of crisis. Now that we have patted ourselves on the back, I'm going to get down to more urgent business.

In my riding, something worked extremely well this summer, and this since the start. I am referring to the New Horizons for Seniors program. However we haven't heard a lot about it. Also, I would like you to tell us how this program works.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

It's not a pension, but a program.