Status of Women Committee on Oct. 8th, 2009

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

The meeting will now begin.

As the committee knows, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), today we are looking at increasing the participation of women in non-traditional occupations.

We have, as you see on your agenda, witnesses from the Department of Human Resources and Social Development Canada and witnesses from Statistics Canada.

We will then go on, as you know, to the motion we dealt with last week, and we will deal with that in committee business after this part is over.

We shall begin now with the Department of Human Resources and Social Development Canada.

Thank you very much for coming.

We'll begin with Mr. Green.

I think you have Mr. Green's speaking notes with you.

[Martin Green, Director General, Workplace Partnerships Directorate, Department of Human Resources and Social Development Canada]

You do.

Thank you, and good afternoon. Thank you for inviting my colleagues and me here today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Excuse me.

Sorry, Mr. Green. You have 10 minutes to present to us, and then we have a question period in which everyone will have an opportunity to ask you questions from each one of the parties.

Thank you.

[Martin Green]

Thanks for inviting my colleagues and me here today.

My name is Martin Green. I'm the director general of the workplace partnerships directorate within the skills and employment branch of Human Resources and Skills Development Canada. My directorate is responsible for advancing workplace partnerships with industry, labour, provinces and territories, and key stakeholders to ensure that Canadians have the skills and knowledge required to participate and succeed in the workplace.

I am pleased to speak today to the Standing Committee on the Status of Women to explain my department's role in supporting women enter non-traditional occupations and apprenticeship programs.

Unquestionably the most significant labour market change over the last few decades has been the rising educational attainment and increased labour market participation by women. Indeed, as of August of this year, women represented 50.3% of Canada's paid workforce.

I had planned to go through some background context, but I think my friends from Statistics Canada are going to do that, so I am going to start with the participation of women in apprenticeship programs.

According to the registered apprenticeship information system, women's representation in apprenticeship has been increasing over the last 10 years. By the end of 2007 there were 32,000 women registered as apprentices in Canada, an increase of 187% over the last 10 years. By the end of 2007, women represented 10.7% of all registered apprentices in Canada. The number of women registering in trades, which have always been male dominated, is increasing--for example, the number of women registered in building construction trades has increased from 1,560 to 5,315 between 1998 and 2007. This represents a significant increase of 241% during that time period.

Another sector that has shown a positive trend is motor vehicle and heavy equipment repair, where the number of women registered increased from 545 to 1,380, for a 170% increase during the same period. Despite these increases, we fully recognize that women are still underrepresented in the skilled trades.

Results from the 2007 national apprenticeship survey, a survey of over 30,000 apprentices across Canada, shows that 62% of females entered apprenticeship because they were interested in the trade, compared to only 50% of males. Only 7% of females found the apprenticeship technical training difficult, as compared to 12% of males. Only 10% of females found the on-the-job work as an apprentice difficult, compared to 15% of males.

While the global economic situation deteriorated further and faster than anticipated, the prognosis for the economy is improving. Past recessions have affected men and women quite differently. This downturn is no exception. Job losses have fallen more heavily on men than women. While women represent 47% of total employment, they account for only 21% of the job losses from October 2008 to August 2009. This is consistent with the current experience of the United States and the European Union.

Overall there is evidence that while women are increasing their educational attainment and their presence in the labour market, there are still gaps to be addressed. The federal government, in partnerships with provinces, territories, and other stakeholders, continues to work to remove barriers for women who want to participate in the labour market and ensure they are treated equitably.

The Government of Canada has a major role to play in addressing national skills and employment issues. This being said, the short answer to the question of the federal government's role relating to encouraging women to enter non-traditional occupations is that it's a shared responsibility. We work closely with provincial and territorial governments, employers, labour, and other stakeholders to design and implement initiatives that will assist in reducing barriers to employment and improving choices and opportunities for all Canadians.

One way in which we do this is through transfers to provinces and territories, which are best placed to design and deliver labour market programming specific to the needs of their populations. Labour market development agreements provide funding to PTs for skills development and training programs for EI-eligible clients.

Labour market agreements fund provincial and territorial labour market programs and services that focus on skills development for unemployed individuals who are not eligible for employment insurance. This includes underrepresented groups such as women, aboriginal people, and new immigrants. There are 250,000 to 300,000 women who are supported through LMDA agreements each year. The Ontario labour market agreement tracks the number of women served, while the Nova Scotia labour market agreement will target service at unemployed and low-skilled employed Nova Scotians who are not EI-eligible, including women.

To assist Canadians in the downturn, Canada's economic action plan announced a time limited increase of over $1 billion over two years for labour market development agreements and $500 million over two years for the creation of the strategic training and transition fund. The strategic training and transition fund is designed to be flexible to meet the diverse circumstances across regions, and it can be used for clients whether or not they are eligible for EI.

These agreements provide PTs with the flexibility to meet the skills development and training needs of their populations, obviously including women. In addition to these transfers to provinces and territories, we, as a department, offer a variety of programs, working closely with provincial and territorial governments, employers, and other stakeholders to encourage labour market attachment of Canadian men and women.

The department also contributes in a significant way to the Government of Canada's objective of advancing economic equality for women. Trades and apprenticeship, the sector council program, and the aboriginal skills and employment partnership program are some examples of such programming.

Apprenticeship is largely a provincial responsibility; however, the Government of Canada plays a key role in developing a highly skilled and mobile skilled trades workforce, encouraging access for women to the skilled trades, including non-traditional trades. The Government of Canada provides the national secretariat to the red seal program, which facilitates interprovincial mobility of men and women working as skilled tradespeople by harmonizing requirements and certification in 50 different trades. The red seal trades represent almost 89% of registered apprenticeships in this country.

The Canadian Council of Directors of Apprenticeship, of which HRSDC is a member, is responsible for administering the red seal program.

To address the financial barriers of apprentices, the Government of Canada launched the apprenticeship incentive grant in January 2007. It provides a $1,000 taxable cash grant to eligible apprentices upon completion of the first or second year of the apprenticeship program in one of the designated red seal trades. Since implementation, over 115,000 of these grants have been issued.

As part of Canada's economic action plan, and building on the incentive grant, the apprenticeship completion grant provides a $2,000 taxable cash grant available to apprentices who complete their apprenticeship program and receive their journeyperson certification in a designated red seal trade. The completion grant was launched in July 2009, with eligibility retroactive to January 1 of this year. Since implementation, nearly 5,000 of these grants have been issued.

As a combined result of the completion grant and the existing apprenticeship incentive grant, registered apprentices who completed their apprenticeship training and became certified in a designated red seal trade could be eligible to receive a total of $4,000.

The tradesperson's tools deduction provides employed tradespersons with an annual deduction up to $500 for the acquisition and cost of new tools required for employment in excess of $1,000.

Through the sector council program, the Government of Canada is working with the private sector to enhance workers' skills by increasing employer investment in skills development and promoting workplace learning and training. Sector councils exist in 33 key sectors of the Canadian economy, such as automotive, aviation, biotechnology, child care, construction, environment, mining, and steel. Several national sector councils have identified and started implementing strategies designed to encourage women to enter non-traditional occupations. Let me share a few highlights from some of these sector councils.

The Construction Sector Council has a strong interest in increasing women's participation in non-traditional occupations. The council will be hosting a one-day symposium in March 2010 to share the findings with industry and other key stakeholders of its 2008 study on women in construction and to discuss systemic issues related to the low rate of women's participation in the construction industry. The end goal is to develop an industry-led strategy to attract, recruit, and retain women in construction.

This study clearly shows this industry's commitment to expand its domestic labour pool by improving access to industry careers. The symposium and results of the 2008 study will inform the sector's programming with a view to addressing these issues.

The Information and Communications Technology Council believes in the importance of attracting more women and better integrating women in the Canadian ICT industry. Last year the council engaged its industry sectors in a project called women in information and communication technology. The project's goal was to develop a framework articulating the council's role in the attraction, recruitment, and retention of women in the sector and to look at current best practices. Activities have included two national forums on women in ICT, held in Vancouver and Toronto in February 2008 with over 80 industry leaders across Canada, and the development of a “women in ICT” section on the ICTC website.

As mentioned earlier, there are several other programs that provide support to improve the labour market participation of men and women, often targeting particular client groups. The Government of Canada works with employers to target training to Canada's aboriginal population. The economic action plan enhanced the aboriginal skills and employment partnership program, which fosters partnerships across the spectrum, including the private sector, to help aboriginal Canadians receive skills and employment training. Several of these projects focus on apprenticeships, with aboriginal women and youth as target client groups. Similarly, many of the projects are in non-traditional sectors such as mining.

Another notable example is the aboriginal human resources development strategy, which helps first nations, Métis, and Inuit women prepare for, find, and keep jobs, and it also offers important labour market supports such as child care.

I have provided a broad overview of the federal role as it pertains to women in non-traditional roles. There are many other elements of federal policy programming and legislation that I have not spoken about specifically but which do impact on this complex and changing labour market dynamic. For instance, the Government of Canada's initiatives under student aid, child care, employment insurance, and employment equity are all a few of the important aspects of the discussion.

I understand this committee and HUMA have been looking at some of these areas separately. Clearly women have made remarkable progress in education and labour market participation. That said, we need to continue to address persistent gender gaps and challenges.

I look forward to discussing this and your questions today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Mr. Green.

I'm going to ask the direction of the committee on this one. We now have Statistics Canada. It may very well be that if we listen to Statistics Canada we can ask questions on everything in one fell swoop, because Statistics Canada statistics may have a bearing on what we just heard from Mr. Green.

What do you think? Would you like to bring in Statistics Canada for 10 minutes and then do the questions and answers?

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Are they all here?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Yes, okay.

All right, Madame Le Petit.

[Christel Le Petit, Chief, Analysis and Special Projects, Labour Statistics Division, Statistics Canada]

Thank you very much. I want to thank the committee for providing Statistics Canada with an opportunity to tell you what we know about the labour market for women, and their education, in non-traditional fields.

My name is Christel Le Petit. I'm chief of analysis in labour statistics. Tracey Leesti is the assistant director of labour statistics.

I'm going to be talking about the labour portion for women. I'll be followed by Yvan Clermont, assistant director in the Centre for Education Statistics, and Kathryn McMullen, chief of analysis in the Centre for Education Statistics, who will complete the story with a picture of the education side.

As you see on slide number 2, as Mr. Green already mentioned, women have been increasing their participation in the labour market over the last 30 years. That is a really big movement, and it underlies a lot of the findings when we look at the increasing share of women in occupations. As a result, the gap between the number of men and the number of women employed has narrowed. The latest data from part of 2009 shows that men have been affected more by the downturn, narrowing that gap even further.

Women are participating more. However, they participate in different types of occupations than men. On slide number 3 you see the breakdown of where women work versus where men work. If we look at the four top types, we have sales and service; business, finance, and administration; social science, education, government services, and religion; and health. If we put those four groups together, 80% of women work in those occupations. For men, this number is only 37%. This was the proportion in 2008. It hasn't changed very much over the last 20 years or so. Women are participating more, but they go into different occupations.

As I said, they've progressed, and there are some occupations in which they even surpass men. Women used to be less than 50% of the workforce and are now more than 50% of the workforce in these occupations: machine operators and related workers in textiles; managers in arts, recreation, and sport; and insurance and real estate sales.

Women have also increased substantially in some other occupations, notably in health sciences; as judges, lawyers, and notaries; as physicians and optometrists; and as managers in art, culture, and sport. Those are some of the occupations where women have made the most increases in their share.

In terms of non-traditional occupations, which is the focus of this committee, internationally there is no standard for what a non-traditional occupation is, nor is there a standard at Statistics Canada. What we have done for today is use a definition that defines a non-traditional occupation as an occupation in which fewer than 25% of the workers were women in 1987. In 1987, 9.9% of the workers in non-traditional occupations were women. That proportion has increased. By 2008 it had reached 15.4%.

Keeping that definition of a non-traditional occupation, slide 6 shows where women have increased the most. As you see, there's really a mix of types of non-traditional occupations where women have increased their share. There are some professional ones, some technical ones, and some managerial ones. There aren't a lot in the trades, however. That's a key finding. They're increasing their share, but they're not increasing in the trades. When you look in a bit more detail at the trades, the types of trades women pick haven't changed very much. They would be seen as traditional women's trades: hairstylists, tailors, dressmakers, bakers, and cooks. When women go into the trades, they go into very specific kinds of trades.

In the more male-specific trades, we still see a very low proportion of women. These are trades such as refrigeration and air-conditioning mechanics, gas fitters, cement finishers, and bricklayers. There haven't been a lot of changes recently.

The committee also asked which are the non-traditional occupations in which women have not increased their share. Because women have increased their participation overall, there's a very short list of occupations in which they haven't increased their share. Of the 139 categories we looked at, women did not increase their share in only six.

This concludes my overview of the labour market. There are lots of reasons why women are working in certain occupations. One of them is education, and Yvan will continue.

[Yvan Clermont, Assistant Director, Tourism and the Centre for Education Statistics Division, Statistics Canada]

Thank you, Christel.

First, Madam Chair, I want to thank you for your invitation to provide you—you and the committee members—with some data on non-traditional studies for women.

We have just seen the current picture of employment for women of all ages in Canada. In general, that picture speaks to the career choices made in the near and distant past.

What I would like to do here is focus on the new generations of women about to enter the labour market and the fields they have chosen. We want to focus in particular on occupations traditionally held by men.

Today, this overview of women's education gives us an idea of the forces that will influence the women entering the labour market in the near future. The changing role of women in society has had an impact in recent years on their education, and this change is clearly illustrated by recent census data, shown in the graph on page 8.

For older generations, it is quite clear that, overall, men formerly had a higher level of education than women. This is a relatively well known fact. This situation has changed significantly in recent generations. Not only have women caught up to men's education levels, but also, according to data from the last census, in 2006, the number of women under 35 attending university was greater than the number of men.

For some time now, women, like men, are choosing in greater numbers to attend college or university. But where then are these women choosing to pursue their postsecondary education? In the graph on page 9, we see that younger generations of women are much more likely to go to university than women from previous generations. As I indicated previously, this is relatively well known. It is especially true for college and university studies.

In fact, according to data from the last census, we also find that 33% of women aged from 25 to 34 had a university degree, compared to 25% of men of the same age. Although equally applicable to men and women, fewer women are going into trades-related occupations. The same is not quite true for the trades. In fact, at the time of the 2006 census, fewer women aged 25 to 34 had a trade certification than in previous generations. This is also seen with younger men, but fewer of them attend college and university.

On page 10, you see the areas of university study for women. The data is for two years, 1992 and 2007. Overall, 56% of university graduates in 1992 and 61% in 2007 were women. The graph reveals four main points.

First, in both 1992 and 2007, the majority of university graduates in health- and education-related fields were women. This is also probably quite a well-known fact.

Second, the percentage of female graduates went from less than 50%—a minority—in 1992, to over 50%—a majority—in 2007, in two areas of study: physical and life sciences, as well as agriculture, natural resources and conservation.

Third, the percentage of female university graduates increased in all disciplines; they now represent over 50% of all graduates in all areas of study, with three exceptions: architecture and engineering; mathematics and information sciences; and personal, protective and transportation services.

It is also interesting to note that the percentage of female graduates has dropped in only one area of study during this 15-year period, and that is in mathematics and information sciences.

Let us turn now to page 11. If we consider Canadians with a trade certification, we see a significant split between men and women. The most popular areas of study for men are also those with the fewest number of women. Overall, 37% of all Canadians with a trade certification in 2006 were women.

This table shows the five most significant areas of study for men, and the female participation rate for each. They are: mechanical and repair technologies, construction trades, precision production, engineering technologies/technicians, and transportation and materials moving. Nearly 80% of all trades-certified men specialized in one of these five fields of study. As you can see, the percentage of women working in these same fields varies between 2% and 3% only, to 10% in engineering technologies and 7% in transportation.

On page 12, of course, we see that some women are trade-certified. Where are they? The table shows the most popular fields of study for women who hold a trade certificate. The five categories shown here together account for 86% of all women. Only 9% work in the other specializations.

In summary, the percentage of trade-certified women in all trades has increased over the past decade. However, less than 4% of them work in the trades, such as construction, electricity, etc.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

We will begin the questions now, starting with Madame Zarac.

The question-and-answer period, as I'm sure you're all familiar with by now, is seven minutes long, but it includes questions and answers, not just questions.

Madame Zarac.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I had trouble following what the Statistics Canada official was saying because the document I had did not match up with what the gentleman was saying. In fact, I do not have the statistics on page 12. However, I do have the document in English.

Are there statistics available on the number of women choosing to enter non-traditional occupations? What percentage of women stays in those occupations? Do you have statistics on the number of women leaving them?

[Christel Le Petit]

That is an excellent question. Unfortunately, our figures do not enable us to do a longitudinal follow-up of those people to see to what extent they are remaining in those jobs.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Would you like to try to track those figures? Have you started to do so? I think that it would be important in determining which sectors should benefit from training.

[Christel Le Petit]

We cannot do it in the short term, but in the intermediate term, it would certainly be very interesting.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Thank you.

People have talked about a symposium scheduled for March 2010 being organized by the construction industry. They have also talked about a study. Has it already been completed?

[Éric Parisien, Director, Sector Council Program, Department of Human Resources and Social Development Canada]

The study is ongoing. It will be completed shortly by the Construction Sector Council. Although a number of other studies have been done in the past, what is interesting about this one is that it is being done by the industry itself. So we are talking about people in construction, construction site owners and construction unions. They are extremely interested in understanding why women are not choosing to work in the construction trades and especially why they do not stay there.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

So you already have statistics on the women who do not stay.

[Éric Parisien]

The Construction Sector Council is starting to keep statistics. In March, it will validate them all with the industry.

Studies have already been done with women's consultation groups in the construction industry. We also talked extensively with construction companies. We realize that large companies no longer have the means to do things in this area, and the small companies even less so.

That said, the industry is obviously interested in these phenomena, essentially out of economic need. We know that the aging of workers in the trades is of serious concern to the construction industry. Its leaders must continually try to find new sources of talent in non-traditional sectors. So they are extremely interested in newcomers. They are also very interested in older workers, meaning they are wondering how to keep their older workers in the industry.

The same is being done in mining too. We are also interested in seeing how we can recruit and especially retain women in those trades.

The symposium in March will principally try to create consensus within the industry, meaning both employers and unions.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

I followed that. For mechanical or electrical construction work, the increase in percentage is extremely low.

[Éric Parisien]

Yes.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

I imagine that the symposium will try to counter that.

The committee has already looked at the fact that training currently being offered may not be tailored to women. If fewer women are working in this area, fewer women can benefit from the training currently being provided by the government under the employment insurance program.

Madam Chair, once the study has been completed, could we have a copy? It could be interesting.

Thank you.

Now,

my next question would be for Mr. Green.

You've mentioned that the federal government, in partnership with the provinces and territories, continues to work to remove barriers for women who want to participate in the labour market and ensure that they are treated equally. Since these are two different objectives, could you explain to me how you remove barriers and how you ensure that women are treated equally?

[Martin Green]

I'm not an expert on it, but there's the Employment Equity Act, on which I understand there was a motion in the House earlier this year that it would be referred to a committee for study and that there has been agreement that one of the standing committees would look at it. So through the Employment Equity Act we certainly attempt to ensure there's a level playing field, if you like.

In terms of removing barriers, we have a sort of suite of programs that we try to address. The sector council program that Éric heads is looking at a number of the barriers that exist, be they workplace practices, discrimination, hiring practices, or whether the training is open to women. Those are things we look at and we try to react to.

The foreign credential recognition program obviously works on barriers to women who hold foreign credentials.

So there's a range of programs we bring to bear on that.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

When you say programs—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have one minute left.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

When you say programs that are trying to take down the barriers, what are those programs?

[Martin Green]

The sector council program, the trades and apprenticeship program, and our EI programs all have facets of that. One of the things I guess that's sort of problematic is that we don't have a removing barriers program, but certainly facets to all of them—and built into all of our federal-provincial agreements—are the indications that we should be monitoring what is going on, what is the uptake by women, etc., and why. And those are all parts of annual reports that we get on these.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

You mentioned a red seal. I'm not familiar with it. Would you explain it to me, please?

[Martin Green]

Yes, Amy can.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Ms. Mifflin-Sills, I'm going to let you have 20 seconds.

[Amy Mifflin-Sills, Director, Trades and Apprenticeship Division, Department of Human Resources and Social Development Canada]

Okay, I'll try to be fast.

It is an interprovincial program with provinces, territories, and the federal government to develop standards for certification and qualification of individuals in the 50 red seal trades—trades like carpentry, plumbing, electricity, and so forth.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

That was efficient, thank you.

Madame Demers.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Mifflin-Sills, could you send us the list of those 50 trades, the red seal trades?

[Amy Mifflin-Sills]

Yes, of course. We have a website.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Mr. Parisien, I can already tell you some of the report's conclusions. The Le Chantier training centre is located in my constituency. They work hard to train young women who have chosen to work in the construction trades. Unfortunately, there is still a lot of sexual harassment, ridicule and disrespect from their male colleagues. Young women who choose to remain in this area are creating their own businesses because they cannot find places where their employer respects them. That will probably be one of the conclusions.

Mr. Green, I would like to know whether, in your work, you collaborate with the Minister responsible for the status of women, particularly with regard to the women's program. Part of this program deals more specifically with what the minister had intended this year, meaning non-traditional skilled trades for women.

Have you had the opportunity to work together in order to determine which of those skilled trades would be the most promising for young women?

[Amy Mifflin-Sills]

Are you talking about trades and professions, or just the trades?

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

I am referring to non-traditional skilled trades and professions for women.

[Amy Mifflin-Sills]

We do not have a partnership program for trades and professions. It only includes the trades.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

That was not what I asked, Ms. Mifflin-Sills. I wanted to know whether your department works in collaboration with the minister responsible for the status of women. One of her programs gives priority to non-traditional skilled trades and occupations for women. You seem to know where women are and where they are not. So I would have been very happy to learn that you were working together. I am sad to learn that you are not.

This year, 5,000 people received a grant under your student assistance program. Of those 5,000 individuals, how many were women?

[Martin Green]

Amy has the numbers. I can start by telling you they are quite low—they reflect the numbers of women.

To round off on your previous question, it is probably a great idea that we speak to the status of women. We do a fair bit of work with them, because they are leading a federal government-wide exercise on gender-based analysis. But we were not aware of this program that you spoke of. That's a great idea.

With respect to the take-up on the grants, I'll ask Amy to explain.

[Amy Mifflin-Sills]

For the AIG, the apprenticeship incentive grant, the take-up for women is approximately 6%. For the apprenticeship completion grant, it is approximately 7%. We need to keep in mind that gender reporting is not a mandatory field. We cannot request it. Approximately 25% of applicants do not respond to the gender question, so there is a margin of error.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Mr. Green, you mentioned a program with an aboriginal human resources development strategy. You said that some services in the program were extremely important because they enabled aboriginal women to have access to education.

We were talking about child care. What kind of child care are we talking about?

[Martin Green]

I honestly don't know the specifics—it's not a program that I deliver. But I can certainly find out. I know a lot of the money is used for the artists and the ASIP program. The communities that use them will take some of the money and put different portions of it toward child care. But I can't be more specific than that.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Could you send us the information on the child care services, Mr. Green?

When it talks about an economic stimulus plan, your department receives many requests, I imagine, for its help in developing a program to provide jobs for as many people as possible, be they men or women.

Do you believe that the current economic stimulus plan, which targets infrastructure, allows as many women as men to have access to quality employment?

[Martin Green]

I can't really comment on the infrastructure. With respect to the skills and workplace initiatives, I think it probably does do that. As I mentioned during this recession, like other recessions, we're seeing that the more negative impacts are on the male side than the female side. There are a whole bunch of statistics on that, but men tend to be more adversely affected.

With respect to the programs on the workplace skills side, they're equally accessible, and there has been gender-based analysis on that.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Did your department help to determine what kinds of jobs should be targeted?

[Martin Green]

In terms of the non-traditional trades and apprenticeships, no.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

I am talking about all kinds of jobs.

[Martin Green]

No, we haven't. At a federal level, the economic action plan doesn't specifically say that we're going to promote X occupation for women. It doesn't do that at all. It does the transfer payments to the provinces, which are delivering most of the training, etc.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Once again, I am astonished to learn that partnering departments are not asked to become involved with the economic stimulus package. We are not being told how as many people as possible can get jobs. I see departments working in isolation. It might perhaps be beneficial to work more openly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Mr. Green, if you're going to respond, you have about 20 seconds.

[Martin Green]

My only response is that because training is devolved to the provinces, we do have a requirement that they report on the impacts of those training programs, but we don't target specific groups at that point.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Perhaps Mr. Parisien could...

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I'm sorry, Madame Demers.

Ms. Hoeppner.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses for being here and for the hard work you do. I'm very impressed with the information you brought us. I'm very impressed with the level, not only of organization but of commitment and the programs and processes in place to help women in Canada. The numbers you have brought us definitely reinforce what we all know: women are not victims in this country. Women are rising to the place that they should be and they are taking their rightful place as leaders in this country, in every sector. I want to thank you for bringing that information.

There are two things I want to ask. To follow up with Ms. Demers, we had a witness here when we did a study on unemployment. She talked about the fact that in many construction fields, in many non-traditional roles that are primarily dominated by men, there are a large number of women who are providing support and administrative duties in offices. Even though we know that statistically men are actually performing those duties of building roads and infrastructure right now, how many women are employed in the construction field in a support role? Maybe they're not the actual tradespeople but they are in a support role. How would their jobs be affected?

[Christel Le Petit]

That is not a number we have on hand, but we could probably put it together and forward it to the committee at a later date.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

I think it's important that we have a multi-dimensional look at the funds provided for infrastructure so we know the whole chain of jobs being created. I believe that women are being impacted, and I think it's important that we look at it. You said that women represent 47% of total employment while they accounted for only 21% of job losses from October 2008 to 2009. It's important that we link that together and see why that is.

I have a 15-year-old daughter in high school right now, who is looking at her future. She's making some pretty big decisions on what she's going to do later on. Is she going to take the university route or the trades route?

The provinces administer education and helping high school students look at the field of study they want to pursue. Can you tell me which provinces have a really good handle, or are taking a lead, on introducing non-traditional roles to our high school kids, and even our children? I think young girls and children have to begin to dream and imagine themselves in non-traditional roles before they grow up to pursue those non-traditional roles.

[Yvan Clermont]

We don't have this type of information. What we could provide, though, is information about the percentage of women in certain trades by province to see if there are any provincial differences. We don't have any meta information about the types of leading programs or anything of that sort that could be taking place in each of the provinces.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Would there be any information on the uptake of even programs that we're offering and where provinces are partnering with us?

[Martin Green]

There are. I don't have an exhaustive list, but actually over the last couple of days I've been looking at this. I have a 17-year-old and a 14-year-old daughter, for whom this is becoming a key question as well.

In looking at it, several provinces are doing that. Ontario has a new program that is targeted exactly at getting young women to enter the trades in non-traditional roles. I was looking through that on the website. I see Newfoundland and New Brunswick are doing that. I would be hesitant, for obvious reasons, to suggest which provinces are the leaders in that. But they all do that. Also, with respect to the LMDA and LMA moneys, we do an annual report on what they are doing to encourage that in various provinces.

You also have a number of private organizations, like the Canadian Council of Technicians and Technologies. I was just at the WorldSkills event in Calgary, and they had a booth there. Actually, I was drawn to it because they had this electric guitar--one of these rock guitar things--and if you played it you won a T-shirt, but it was only for young girls. It was called Go Tech girl. They're focusing on young women across Canada in grades 7 to 11, basically to show them that there are very meaningful careers in the technology trades out there. It was actually very impressive. They're funded by a number of private sector organizations, and I believe our department used to provide some minor funding to them.

There are all sorts of activities like that going on. When I look at them, they all seem to be bubbling up in the last year or two, so there are obviously some sorts of economic drivers going on behind this. I think there's a societal acceptance and all those kinds of things happening.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Good. Do I have more time?

Just from what your response was, I think, too, for a lot of years there has obviously been a very big push for all of our young people to take the university route. It's only been in the last few years that we've said to our kids, listen, getting a trade is a good option. There are a lot of jobs. The money is good. It's a good, honourable thing to do. But I think we've been talking in that way with our young men. Maybe what we need to do is find ways, and hopefully there will be some leadership from the private sector even beyond what you mentioned, where the private sector will come forward. I imagine they already are seeing the need to do that. They need skilled workers. They need to look at where the pool is. There is a huge untapped pool with young women.

So I'm just wondering, are there any kinds of programs right now that you would be doing with the private sector, or just basically the apprenticeship ones and things that you're already doing?

[Martin Green]

Just before Éric speaks about it, there are a number of things we do. One of the things that you've mentioned, which is actually happening out there, is there's still a big question for men in the trades.There's still this whole issue out there that going to university is the thing to do. There's some sort of stigma, almost, about the trades, which is still an issue we're dealing with in terms of getting young men to go into the trades and to complete their education. That's probably even more pronounced for young women in that regard.

Éric can probably expand a little on the other.

[Éric Parisien]

Yes. There are 33 sector councils, and they vary in fields such as steel, child care, policing, textiles, manufacturing, and so on. Perhaps the four sector councils that have had a more significant look at these issues include mining and construction. The IT sector is absolutely dramatically serious about the dwindling number of women or girls entering college or university programs in science and technology, specifically technology, IT. Also, the automotive repair industry numbers have increased slightly over the years, but it's not significant.

The issue is one of demographics and economics. Those companies are looking at an aging workforce. They need highly skilled people, and like you said, you have to tap previously untapped labour pools.

Women need to go into mining more. The Mining Sector Council has developed a very significant and in-depth analysis of the physical demands of key occupations in their sector for two reasons: one, to avoid injuries on the job and have a workforce that can stay in the mining industry longer; the second one is to attract women into their occupations. Some very sophisticated mining operations in this country are actually done above ground, where the underground is done by machines and robots more than by human beings. So this becomes a better possibility for women.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

That's it, Candice. Thank you.

Irene Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much for being here today and bringing all this expertise. I truly appreciate it.

I'll start with a question from the notes that were provided by our researchers, and I want to thank our analyst and researchers. As always, they've provided excellent support documents.

In these documents there's a section that talks about women in the corporate world. Essentially, despite the fact that more women are entering corporate office positions, only about 17% reach any level of management, and of those, only 6% have actually led companies. In terms of climbing the ladder, the higher the ladder the fewer women.

I wonder if Statistics Canada or anyone has tried to investigate that to determine that, and does it suggest that the glass ceiling still exists?

[Tracey Leesti, Assistant Director, Labour Statistics Division, Statistics Canada]

I'm not aware of any studies myself that we have done looking at that. We can go back and take a closer look and perhaps get back to you on that, but I'm not aware of any off the top of my head.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Would that be instructive, to really get a picture in terms of that glass ceiling?

[Martin Green]

We don't have any specific studies either, but there is still a lot of attention on that, because obviously gaps still exist.

This is sort of anecdotal, but there's a project we've just finished with the University of Ottawa under the workplace skills initiative, a small project that actually seems to be yielding results. It's aimed at immigrants under the foreign credential recognition rubric. There are a number of skilled immigrants, and how do you actually up-skill and re-skill immigrants who've had managerial positions outside the country and come here and find themselves thwarted?

It's actually an online tool for small and medium-sized enterprises, which usually have the most problems dealing with that kind of thing in their labour force, because big companies tend to have more resources to do it. They're having a lot of success by saying, “Here are the three or four things you can do to actually better utilize these qualifications that are recognized outside and move people up levels within companies.”

It's focused on managerial talent. I suspect we would find that the glass ceiling and those things still remain in many companies, although I believe the data overall shows that some of that is improving.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

On page 19 of your presentation, you referenced the impact on the labour market of things such as student aid, child care, employment insurance, and employment equity, and obviously these do impact the ability of women in terms of their success. Have you investigated the importance of these elements for women in order for them to achieve success? For example, without child care, is it more difficult?

[Martin Green]

I don't think there has been a holistic analysis of when you put them all together. I know we have pretty good data, which I don't have with me, with respect to the take-up under student assistance, and the same with child care.

Child care is a fundamental component of this debate. The employment insurance programs are the same. There's some pretty sophisticated analysis of women who are taking that up. Employment equity obviously would have an impact as well.

I don't think we have put them together in a sort of holistic story of what it means for women in non-traditional and apprenticeship jobs.

Would that be fair?

[Christina Caron, Director, Labour Market Policy Research, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development]

Maybe I could add, though, that looking at Canada by comparison to other countries, there has been analysis done, for instance, by the IMF, looking at the whole complex of policies within Canada, that has indicated that definitely certain policies in Canada have helped to stimulate the rate of participation among women. Canada ranks very highly, I believe it's sixth right now, in terms of the latest figures in the OECD in labour market participation.

Some of the policies that the IMF has credited for that include our system of taxation, where we have separate taxation of spouses, which is not the norm in every country, of course, and child care would be another of those policies.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay.

Sorry, but Canada is sixth in the field of what...?

[Christina Caron]

Canada ranks sixth in terms of labour market participation in the OECD for women of working age.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay.

[Kathryn McMullen, Chief, Integrated Analysis Section, Tourism and the Centre for Education Statistics Division, Statistics Canada]

I could add something much more targeted as well. These are data from the national apprenticeship survey. We have to bear in mind that it's not a huge sample.

Men and women were asked to give the reasons why they did not complete their apprenticeship program. For women, the top-ranking reason, although it was still for only about 16% of women, was family responsibilities. Second was financial reasons. The top for men was financial and that they got a better job offer.

So if we look specifically at the trades, child care does seem to be one of the reasons that prevent women from completing, bearing in mind that there are relatively few women in trades to start with.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

But it still has an impact, then. That's interesting, because I was going to ask, too, about the grants that were referenced, with $2,000 a year for apprenticeships and that kind of thing. I wondered how many did drop out or didn't access that opportunity because of child care problems and caregiving, because women do very often get into that kind of box.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Irene, I think we've finished your round.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Madam Chair, I was just getting rolling.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I know, I know.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

We actually have another round.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Can we get that information?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Sure. If there is an answer to that, let's get it quickly.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Could we get the information that she cited, the actual study?

[Kathryn McMullen]

Yes. We can get that to you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Now we're going to the second round. This is actually five minutes again for questions and answers.

We start with Ms. Neville.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Before I ask any questions, and through you, Madam Chair, I'm wondering if any of the reports you have referenced here today could be sent to the clerk for our information. There have been a number of quotes from both national and international ones. I would certainly appreciate it.

[Martin Green]

Absolutely.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you.

Thank you for being here. I suspect you put this together fairly quickly. It's quite comprehensive.

I have a number of questions.

On the information you've given us, all of the numbers and statistics, can you break that down and give it to us by province? Can you give it to us by various groups? I'm particularly interested in knowing about the participation of aboriginal women in the trades.

[Christel Le Petit]

Yes. We can do that.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Okay.

You talked about a significant increase in women in the trades with trade certificates. A significant one here is personal and culinary services. Does that include cosmetology?

[Kathryn McMullen]

Yes, it does, and hairdressing.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

So that would be a fairly substantial piece of...?

[Kathryn McMullen]

They're the traditional women's....

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Okay.

I'm intrigued by the question that my colleague asked about when women enter the trades. You have some information on why they leave. Are there any further longitudinal studies done on where they go, why they do it, and whether they take support roles? Do you have any data or information on that?

[Tracey Leesti]

No.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

No? Okay.

[Yvan Clermont]

The only source of data we have is connected to the national apprenticeship survey, which also looks at the people who have graduated from a trade in the past five years. Therefore, that's the only way we can do it. This is a way of sympathetically looking at longitudinal information, that's all. We would need to run a follow-up to a national apprenticeship survey to know what happens to these subgroups.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you.

I have another couple of questions.

You talked about the fact, Mr. Green, that more men are affected by the recession. Did you factor into that the number of women who are working part time or was that simply for full-time jobs?

[Christina Caron]

It was all jobs. We have done breakdowns by part-time and full-time jobs, however.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Could we have those?

[Christina Caron]

I think I have them right here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Could you also send them to us, please?

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Yes. I don't want to use up my time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Yes, for distribution.

[Martin Green]

We'd be happy to provide them.

[Christina Caron]

Actually, I do have them here. Full-time employed men account for 79% of total job losses, and full-time employed women account for 47%, on an aggregate basis. And the reason those add up to more than 100% is that there's been growth, of course, in part-time work among both men and women.

[Martin Green]

As indicated, we'll certainly provide more information. But just to be a little more helpful, while the employment rate for women has increased, we're aware that the gender gap persists, with women earning 84% of men—and in the blue-collar occupations, this gap is even bigger.

We also know that in Canada more women work part time than men, and the gap has grown among young people. Work/life balance is a significant reason behind this trend, with more Canadian women reporting going to school as the reason for working part time. In 2008, among part-time workers, about six times as many women as men cited caring for family and personal family responsibilities as their reason for working part time.

But we will provide you with more information.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you.

Can I just ask some questions about the sector councils? You indicated there are 33 sector councils. I assume you fund them differently, that they're not all funded the same.

[Éric Parisien]

No, they're not. We have a funding formula that looks at the relative importance of these sectors to our economy, and how well they perform generally speaking. Depending on where they fall in this wonderful graph, their core funding is adjusted time-wise, if they have two to three years, as opposed to more.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I don't know how much time I have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have about two more seconds.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

My question about the sector councils is the following. When you provide funding to them, is there any requirement for them to do some gender-based analysis and undertake some initiatives—though I wouldn't expect that in cosmetology—when you're working with them? Or do they determine their own priorities as they relate to women?

[Éric Parisien]

As they relate to women, most sector councils are asked to provide or undertake sector studies on a regular basis, on either a three- to five-year cycle, and most of them are starting to put those numbers in—

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

But it's not a requirement from you?

[Éric Parisien]

No, not at this time, but most have done it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Could we just ask for some information?

Could we get a list of those sector councils that are funded, please?

[Éric Parisien]

Yes.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Madame Boucher.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I will be sharing my time with Ms. McLeod.

Good afternoon. Thank you for being here today. Everyone is interested in what you have to say. It is extremely interesting, and a number of questions come to mind as we listen to you.

Mr. Green, you said that you work in cooperation with the provinces and territories. In some areas, are you not stepping on provincial jurisdiction? Do you have a program, or is your role limited to making a financial contribution?

[Martin Green]

Our role is a callous one. Basically, the training has been devolved to the provinces, and there's been an attempt to clearly delineate between the training and.... We're very involved in labour market information, and we have the EI programs, but with respect to the on-the-ground training, that has been left to the provinces. With respect to the federal dollars that are being transferred, we obviously indicate what the priorities are, based on what we know about the various labour markets.

So that's the basic delineation.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

What is the pay scale for male-dominated trades and female-dominated trades? Are men still better paid than women?

[Christel Le Petit]

You are probably correct. I cannot give you the figures today, because I do not have them with me. But if you want to know the salaries for non-traditional trades and “non-non traditional trades“, if I may use that term, we could send them to you.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

It is important to know whether inequalities in terms of training exist in male-dominated skilled trades.

[Christel Le Petit]

I must remind you that we have seen an increase in the number of women in occupations other than the trades: the professions and management.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Are those salaries more or less equal, or is there still a difference?

[Christel Le Petit]

I will get you the data later.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Could you send it to us?

[Christel Le Petit]

Yes, I will.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Perfect. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

If you could provide that information to the clerk, we will disseminate it.

[Christel Le Petit]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Cathy.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

We can see from your presentation that we've made some great strides, but there's still some work that needs to be done. I think it's important to recognize that we want to remove barriers and create opportunities, but that we can't ever expect to have 50-50, because there are going to be choices.

I'm curious about two things. One you probably can't answer, but I'm just going to throw it out there. We have a recession right now and we're talking about very short-term issues. But if we look at the demographic and the long-term labour market, there are going to be opportunities everywhere for everyone by virtue of the silver tsunami. Is there any thinking being done about what might happen 15 years down the road, when we're actually going to be desperate for all these positions, whether apprenticeship, medical, or whatever?

[Martin Green]

Yes, there is. About 20 years ago you had not enough jobs for too many people. Before the recession, we were dealing with not enough people to fill too many jobs. Then the recession came, and there's been an impact on that thinking. A lot of people are now thinking that after the recession, and even through the recession, a number of job shortages will persist. There are still areas of the economy and around Canada where people are looking for the skilled labour force to fill the jobs.

Some think that towards the end of the recession we're going to go back to a time when there were a lot of good jobs out there, but without enough people. This will depend, to some extent, on how fast our recovery takes place and how quickly we can fill those skill shortages.There have been a fair number of studies done on areas where we think this might happen. A lot of industries and educational institutions are starting to focus on it. We will play a facilitating role in this.

Did you want to add anything?

[Christina Caron]

I would add that there are certain groups within the population that have a lower participation rate than the rest of the population. For example, we see this in persons with disabilities and aboriginal women. Some groups have older workers whose participation rate is lower. I think there have been a lot of studies of specific subgroups of the population, with a view to finding what might be done to encourage greater labour market participation among them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

France.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Thank you.

Since you want to say a few words, I will give you my 30 seconds.

[Christel Le Petit]

Thank you.

As to what will happen in the future, I would like to mention the Canadian Occupational Projection System or COPS—I do not know what it is called in French—which falls under Human Resources and Skills Development Canada. That department uses various data we provide to project what will happen in the future in various occupations. I could send you more information on their recent document.

[Tracey Leesti]

In addition, many of the provinces conduct their own provincial occupation projection systems.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Parisien, I quite like statistics, particularly when they deal with non-traditional occupations. I have changed a car engine before and I can say that having oily fingernails is not very nice when you are going out.

You are conducting studies on non-traditional occupations, ones that are not attracting women. Is that because of health risk leave during pregnancy? Say, for example, a young woman is working in trucking, and since that falls under federal jurisdiction, she is not entitled to health risk leave. Yet her baby's life is at stake. Is the inflexibility of a traditional occupation for young women considered in your statistics?

[Éric Parisien]

You have changed an engine?

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Yes, I changed the engine in a Honda Civic.

[Éric Parisien]

Congratulations, I am impressed.

Sectoral studies done by the sector councils belong to them; the statistics are theirs. Our tasks are to fund them and to encourage women to enter various occupations. Our role is one of influence.

We can ask a sector council to look at something in particular. In construction or trucking, good studies are under way, including some that will soon be published. It might be a good idea to check whether various provincial or federal policies are having an impact.

We know that in construction, there are things that a pregnant woman cannot do.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

I understand that. That is exactly why I want to know whether there are statistics on it. You are promoting non-traditional occupations, but we need to also respect the fact that women have babies. That is why we need to ensure balance.

In big companies such as Bell or Hydro, and even within government, men still dominate what is called the “key occupations”. Men are the big deal 99% of the time.

According to your statistics, women say that they have no access to certain occupations, that they are for men only. I could give you some examples from government. The person in charge of finance is a man, as is the one responsible for international affairs. Traditionally, these occupations are not opened up to women.

Do you have any statistics on dissatisfaction because various key positions in companies are not accessible to women?

[Éric Parisien]

No, not through the Sectoral Council Program.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Okay.

Mr. Green.

[Martin Green]

I don't know if StatsCan does anything with women's participation and this sort of thing. But in the federal government, in the public service, I know there are stats. There's been almost remarkable progress. The gap still exists, especially in the senior management positions. In the corporate world, I'm not sure. I know the public service keeps those stats pretty carefully.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

I have never worked for government, but I did work for a telecommunications company. You are saying that over the past 10 years, women have managed to take their places without having to be better or stronger in order to reach the same level.

[Martin Green]

I don't know the nuance of it, but I do know there have been significant improvements within the federal public service in terms of the senior management roles and women taking them. There's been a great increase, and I think it's been pretty well documented. Gaps still exist, but it's been remarkable.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Could you provide us with some kind of percentage of women who have a more senior position than a man?

[Martin Green]

I don't have it with me, but I can certainly get it to the researcher and share it with the committee. I believe Treasury Board and the Public Service Commission have kept those pretty carefully.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

It's almost 50%. It's very good.

Thank you, France.

Irene.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I wanted to come back to the discussion about pay equity. You referenced pay equity. How does the remuneration in male-dominated trades compare to remuneration in female-dominated trades? Have there been investigations in that regard?

[Christel Le Petit]

It's the same answer. We will have to get you the numbers for that.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Is there a regional variation in the participation of women in the trades and apprenticeship programs?

[Christel Le Petit]

We're going to provide you with that as well.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay.

And has there been any attempt to look at the social and economic implications of women not participating in apprenticeship and training? I would think if women are shut out or if women feel they can't access it or they're not accessing it, for whatever reason—lack of child care, lack of support—that could have a profound impact on a region or a town or a community. Any thought about that in terms of looking at it or studying it?

[Tracey Leesti]

I'm not aware of any studies that have been done. Those would probably be fairly small statistics. I know Kathryn mentioned a program that looked at some of the reasons around it, but I suspect that was at the national level. To try to get it down to such a small geographic detail would be fairly difficult.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

StatsCan just needs more money and that's all there is to it.

I'm quite interested. There was mention made of the increase in the number of women attaining university education, and in fact degrees. I believe more women than ever are enrolling in universities, yet when you look at the reality of who is doing the teaching—who the academics and the professors are—there seem to be far more men than women. Has there been any investigation of that in terms of the reasons, or just gathering information about the reality of that?

[Tracey Leesti]

For the survey we work on we don't have the reasons why, and off the top of my head, I can't think of a survey that might have the reasons why they go into the teaching profession. We could gather a little bit more information around the statistics or the numbers, a breakdown of males and females in the educational profession.

[Kathryn McMullen]

If I could add to that, it will differ by level of education. We see in the graduation statistics that women far outnumber men and have increased their share of graduates in education. You would have to look at that at the elementary, secondary, and post-secondary levels. You see a gradient, with primary school teachers primarily being women. There may have been some changes at the secondary school level. We can't separate elementary and secondary in our statistics; we collect them together. Then you get to the post-secondary level. You see those proportions change as you move up the educational hierarchy.

[Christel Le Petit]

I'm not sure if I understood your point correctly, but tell me if I'm wrong. I have some numbers, like the share of women university professors. In 2006 it was 46%, and that's a 7% increase compared to 10 years earlier.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

So 46% of those teaching in universities and colleges are women.

[Christel Le Petit]

And assistants. They're females; that's right.

For colleges and other vocational schools, the proportion of females is 53%, and that's an increase of only 1%. And for secondary and elementary school teachers, it's 74%.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Yes, I know that in the secondary panel it is switched, where men....

[Christel Le Petit]

It's the reverse issue, with not enough males.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have one minute, Irene.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Finally, a number of years ago there was a great whoop-de-do about female firefighters, and it was about how on earth they could be bulky enough to drag someone from the flames. We found, in looking at their training, that before they could even proceed they had to be physically able to do all that men could do. So it became a really spurious debate—very acrimonious, but spurious nonetheless.

I wonder if you have stats on female police officers, firefighters, and women in the armed forces, because those are most certainly non-traditional jobs.

[Christel Le Petit]

I have to find them.

[Tracey Leesti]

We can send them to you, though, if we run out of time before your 30 seconds are up.

[Christel Le Petit]

I have the firefighter statistics right here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

It's page 6 if the Stats Canada document.

[Christel Le Petit]

The female firefighters were 3% in 2006. That is a substantial increase from the 1% in 1996.

Female correctional services officers are 32%, compared to 24%. It's the same for bylaw enforcement and other regulatory officers, 32%. Female police officers are 20%, compared to 13%. So they have made progress in the protective services. With the firefighters, it's still very low.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Could you share that data with us as well?

[Christel Le Petit]

Sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Thank you, Irene.

Alice.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

Thank you very much for coming. I know that it's within short notice only that you've been able to give us such valuable information.

I have quite a few questions, but they're pretty short ones.

First of all, I'd like to know when the AIG started and when the ACG was introduced, the two grants, the apprenticeship incentive grant and the apprenticeship completion grant. In what year were they started?

[Amy Mifflin-Sills]

The apprenticeship incentive grant began in January 2007 and the completion grant began just this past July.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

This past July, okay. Wonderful.

My other question concerns the many EI training programs the government has put in, especially for those whose industry will be disappearing. Do you have the actual number of people who have benefited, and do you foresee these people going back to the workforce pretty soon after, say, two years of training?

[Martin Green]

I don't have the numbers with me, but I certainly think we have the numbers of people who've benefited, which, unfortunately, are significant in real terms.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

Do you have a gender breakdown between men and women?

[Martin Green]

I think we have a fairly good idea of that as well, which we will provide.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Will you send that to us, please, Mr. Green?

[Martin Green]

Yes.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

My other question is about immigrants, specifically immigrant women, because I know that the foreign credential recognition issue is something the government is working hard on so that some of the foreign-trained people who come to this country will be able to go back to the workforce.

I'm interested in the language requirement, because immigrant women are often in non-traditional jobs. They do not require as much facility in English or French as those in more sophisticated jobs. So can you shed some light on the correlation between the two?

[Amy Mifflin-Sills]

I can speak to the trades. A couple of years ago we did some work with the Centre for Canadian Language Benchmarks to benchmark the examination requirements for someone to be certified in the red seal trades. We found that on a benchmark scale of 1 to 12, they came in at roughly the 5 to 6 level. So on the scale of 1 to 12, according to the Canadian language benchmarks, passing the exam requires about a 5 to 6 level.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

Okay. What about the even lower skills trades, like carpentry and other non-traditional jobs, for immigrant women to go into?

[Amy Mifflin-Sills]

We took a cross-section of trades. I think we studied 10 trades at the time. I'd have to get the list of jobs for you, but the jobs may have included carpentry. I'm not sure.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

So would you believe that increasing language training together with trades training would be a good move for new immigrants, especially immigrant women?

[Amy Mifflin-Sills]

I believe there are programs in place that address that, and the language benchmarks are now being used for ESL programming across the country.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

Wonderful.

I would like to share my time with Mr. Harris.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thank you very much.

I just have a couple of questions.

Mr. Green, on page 5 of your presentation you talked about the gender gap—the 84¢-on-the dollar comparison—and you said that in the blue-collar occupations the gap is even bigger. Can you give me a couple of examples of what blue-collar occupations would have that larger gap?

[Martin Green]

I know the number we're using in the blue-collar occupations is actually 72¢. When we talk about some of the blue-collar jobs, I think we're talking about non-traditional jobs, the trades, construction, etc.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

So what you're saying then is that if there's a female with an electrician's trade ticket and a male with an electrician's trade ticket working for the same company or the same union, there would be a wage gap between the two of them?

[Martin Green]

I'm not sure if I'm saying that.

Christina, do you have...?

[Christina Caron]

I think those would be average figures across the occupations, so they wouldn't necessarily refer to people who work within the same company.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

But specifically, it refers to blue-collar occupations. If these include, say, red seal trade jobs—carpenters, plumbers, electricians—and if there were a female and a male with the same ticket working in the same province, and maybe even in the same town, is there a reason why their...? I ask because these wages, as I understand them, are set under union agreements primarily. Surely there wouldn't be a difference in the same plumber's job between a man and a woman if they both had the same trade tickets. Am I correct in assuming that?

[Martin Green]

Yes. I wouldn't necessarily refer to unionized jobs, because I don't think all blue-collar jobs equate to blue-collar jobs, but I should probably dig down a little deeper on that. I know the 84¢ was across the economy, and there was a study that demonstrated that in the blue-collar occupations, and I should probably be able to be a little more precise for you, the gap was, I think, 72¢ to 74¢. But I will get more precision around that for you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Sorry, we're at six minutes now on that round. Thank you.

Mr. Green, can you make sure that we all get a copy of that, that the clerk gets it?

[Martin Green]

Yes. I'll do it through the clerk.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

Before you leave, I would like to ask a couple of questions. It won't take long. I'm going to take about one minute for my questions.

Some questions had been asked earlier. Gender-based analysis, as you know, was brought in, in 1996, in cabinet. Every department is supposed to do disaggregated data and analyze all policies, legislation, and programs to ensure the gender aspect is analyzed. When questions were asked by some of the members, I noted that the department had not done disaggregated data on many of them and had not had a gender analysis done. That's the first question.

Second, the Employment Equity Act speaks to four groups: aboriginal people, disabled persons, women, and visible minorities. Obviously that should be guiding everything that is done if we're going to fulfill those requirements that were brought forward sometime in 1994, I think. Therefore, why is that not being assessed today?

Those are my questions.

[Christina Caron]

I can speak to gender-based analysis.

I can certainly say that's mainstream within HRSDC, meaning there is a gender-based analysis support unit that provides support throughout the department, but the actual responsibility for conducting gender-based analysis rests with the individual units.

In some cases, however, there are data problems in terms of actually having the gender data, as my colleague mentioned previously. In some instances, the data are there; in others, they're not.

I can certainly say there's an across-the-board attempt to gather those data where possible and to work with them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Will someone answer the employment equity question? I think gender-disaggregated data or sex-disaggregated data is essential to do GBA, so that should be done initially.

Does Mr. Green want to answer that?

[Martin Green]

Actually, no. I'm going to get back to you on that, because originally I thought labour had been invited to this, and I'm not comfortable giving you a precise answer. But we will give you one through the clerk, if that's acceptable.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

I want to thank both Statistics Canada and HRSDC for coming and answering the multitude of questions you got. We look forward to your sending us some of the data.

We have a motion to deal with, so I'd like us to move as speedily as possible to that.

Thank you very much for coming.

Madame Demers, will you please bring back your motion, now that everyone has been given the information?

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

With pleasure, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Excuse me.

Ms. Hoeppner.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you.

As a point of clarification before we begin the amendment, just for my own explanation, many times when we have witnesses, you as the chair have a question and you provide a different perspective. According to the rules, are you basically allotted the same amount of time? How does it work with the chair asking questions? I wonder whether it might be more appropriate for you to ask your question during the round.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

No, because I want everyone to get their round. If there is time after the round, I will ask a question. If I notice that there isn't time after the round, I won't.

I can always find out the answer to my question by asking the clerk to get it for me later, but I just prefer that everyone finishes their round before I do it. I don't want to take a place in the lineup and stop it from happening.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Okay. Thanks for the clarification.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Madame Demers.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Would you like me to read the motion again?

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Yes, absolutely.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I can read the changed motion, if you like:

That the Committee call on the government to follow-up on the reports of both Amnesty International and the United Nations regarding the hundreds of young Aboriginal women who have disappeared or been killed over the past 30 years in Canada and that the Committee report this motion to the House as soon as possible.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

We were asked to provide the two reports, the UN report and the Amnesty International report, so that our colleagues could determine the relevance of the motion. One of the reports was written in 2008, over a year ago, that is; however, no measures have been implemented. Amnesty International continues to hold symposiums and meetings throughout Canada with First Nations women. One such meeting was held just yesterday.

We heard extremely touching testimony from people whose cousins, sisters and mothers have disappeared. The time for talking, reading and listening is over; it is now time for action. We must absolutely ensure that something is done for these women. They deserve it. I do not want to use my Liberal friends' slogan, that these women deserve better. What they truly deserve, I feel, is that we do everything possible to ensure that justice is done for those who have disappeared, or have been killed, raped or unfairly incarcerated, and for all those who remain so that they do not have to suffer in the same way. We must act now, Madam Chair.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

Now I open this up to debate, remembering that we just have about 25 minutes to come to a conclusion.

Mrs. McLeod.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I really appreciate this, because it's a lot in my province that this has been happening. It absolutely is a concern to the communities throughout our region.

There's one thing I wasn't aware of until...and I'm glad you brought it to the surface, that we are scheduled to report to the United Nations.

I'm wondering if I could do a proposed amendment. It's a little different, but perhaps you could consider it.

The proposed amendment, in light of this information that we have received, is that:

Whereas the government is already scheduled to report to the United Nations Commission on the Status of Women on the issue of missing and murdered aboriginal women, that the government ensure that the report shall also be submitted to the Standing Committee on the Status of Women, and that the NGOs such as Amnesty International have access to the said report.

I understand that we are intending, in December, to report to the United Nations, so....

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You're offering an amendment.

Madame Demers, would you like us to consider that?

Would you like to write it out, Cathy?

Thank you.

Do you therefore ask for this amendment to the motion to go after the main motion? So after “as soon as possible”, you would start with, “whereas”?

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

No, in place of it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Oh. So you're bringing in a new amendment.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

It's not; it's a....

[An hon. member]

A friendly amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

No, this is a brand new motion, I'm sorry; it's not an amendment.

Madame Demers, have you seen it?

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair, I listened carefully to my colleagues. I am pleased to find out that the government has to report to the United Nations on the situation facing Aboriginal women. All the government can do is to report on the current situation. The government cannot report on what has been done to ensure that the situation does not happen again or to ensure that an inquiry is held so we can find out what happened to these missing or murdered young women.

Unfortunately, I do not think that this amendment is sufficient. A report is one thing, but action is another. Reporting on a problem is one thing, but acting on it is another. That is my only reservation. If my colleague wanted to add to my motion, I would be delighted. An addition of that kind would be even better for First Nations women. I would be delighted, because it would say that we are truly concerned and that we truly want to take action in this regard. I am certain that all the women in your community would be satisfied too. There are too many of them, Madam Chair. More than 500 women have been killed or have disappeared, women in the prime of their lives, who had everything to hope for, for whom we have now created programs to help them move forward, to work and to find safe jobs.

Unfortunately, we are not helping them to not disappear and not be killed. In that context, what is the point of all the rest?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Cathy, I would like to say why I say it's a separate motion. It's because the key part of the motion as Nicole made it is to “follow up”. There's an action required other than just reporting on the report. Yours calls for a report only, so it changes the intent of her motion.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Madam Chair, could we perhaps, in the melding of the motions, go with Madame Nicole's right through to “over the past 30 years in Canada” and then say that “whereas” and then have the motion that I have—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

That's what I thought you wanted to do initially, which would have made sense.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Then we would meld the motions, so that after “30 years in Canada”, it would be “whereas”....

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Now I shall read it. It would read:

That the Committee call on the government to follow-up on the reports of both Amnesty International and the United Nations regarding the hundreds of young Aboriginal women who have disappeared or been killed over the past 30 years in Canada; and,

whereas the government is already scheduled to report to the United Nations Commission on the Status of Women on the issue of missing and murdered aboriginal women, that the government ensure that the report shall also be submitted to the Standing Committee on the Status of Women and that NGOs such as Amnesty International have access to the said report.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Madam Chair, I do not like the word “whereas”. I do not like it, because it is as if we were ignoring what precedes it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

All right. You've made clear you don't like the “whereas”, but I notice Ms. Neville. Does anybody else want to speak? We have Ms. Wong, Madame Boucher, Mr. Harris, and then Ms. Neville.

Alice.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

Definitely I know how everybody feels, and I feel the same: that these women have been missing, they have been in a terrible state, and there's been a lot of attention in the past number of years. However, there are two things I need to point out.

First of all, in asking the government to respond and take action with respect to an NGO, probably we start at the president. We probably have a lot of follow-up to do in order for NGOs to present something, and then the government has to do exactly what they propose.

That's why we amended it in such a way that we let them have “the said report”, so that they will know exactly what the government is doing and will be doing and will commit to do.

The other thing is that when you say “actions” and you look at all the action requirements here, there are a good number of things that might.... We don't know what the report will look like and we don't know what follow-up actions the report will propose. Usually in a report there is some kind of recommendation towards the end about what the government has to do.

So I would vote for the amendment. The follow-up is that we wait for the report.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Ms. Wong.

Madame Boucher.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I'm sorry, Madam Chair, but Madame Demers had asked that the “whereas” be removed. I think we want to clarify the motion we're speaking to before we debate this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

We're debating the amendment, actually.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Yes, before we debate the amendment, I'm perfectly happy to take out the “whereas.” We just need something to make it flow together.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

We've made a suggestion on how you can flow them both.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

The recommendation is also “since.”

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Let's read what we're suggesting instead of the “whereas” and see what Madame Demers says. At the end of the day we still have to vote on the amendment. It would be:

That the Committee calls on the government to follow up on the report

etc.

...or been killed over the past 30 years in Canada; and also, since the government is already scheduled to report to the United Nations Commission on the Status of Women...

etc., that we

....have access to the said report, and that the Committee report this motion to the House as soon as possible.

So we're adding a little piece that is saying that they are going to report, that this committee gets a copy of the report, and that Amnesty International or other NGOs have a copy of the government report that they are going to present to the United Nations.

That's the addition she's adding to yours. It doesn't mean that there isn't going to be a follow-up; you're still asking for a follow-up and are asking for the motion to be reported to the House as soon as possible.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Madam Chair...

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

It's just to know what we're saying before we debate the thing. We're running out of time.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

I am afraid that the government may confuse the report and the action. Madam Chair, I do not want to debate the motion, but there is some confusion. We are told that we will see action when the report is tabled, but, in the meantime, nothing is being done.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

All right. You're speaking against the amendment.

Madame Boucher.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I just want to clarify something. We are all aware of what is happening with regard to Aboriginal women. I was the first to recognize this. We must not forget that we are working in areas of provincial jurisdiction.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Now hang on a moment!

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I just want to make sure that we are working with all of the police forces. Do you understand? To make sure that everyone is working together.

British Columbia must have figures showing what has gone on.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Aboriginals are a federal government responsibility.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I agree, but I want to be certain that everyone is working together. Do you understand? We can help each other, the provinces and the federal government can cooperate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Madame Boucher, I want to clarify. The federal government has a fiduciary and full responsibility for aboriginal people.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I know that, but—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

So this is a federal and not a provincial jurisdiction.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I am trying to explain that we must all work together.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Yes. That's a valid point.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I just want to clarify that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Mr. Harris.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Actually, my point has already been made.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

What was that, Mr. Harris?

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

It was regarding putting those—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

—two pieces together. Thank you.

Ms. Neville.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm speaking against the amendment of the motion. They are two very different concepts or ideas in my mind. The motion that Madame Demers put forward is a motion calling on the government to do follow-up, to take action, and that's what, as you undoubtedly have heard, we have been calling for every day in the House for the last week and before.

This is not a time for more reports. I have seen the government's reports to CEDAW and to the UN. They are not substantive. They gloss over the issues. In fact, I would really like those responses to come to this committee for discussion, but that's another issue.

I think it's mixing two different things altogether, and I would certainly not support the amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Ms. Neville.

Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

I would like to underscore what's been said. I recall that last February the government report to the UN was greeted by women from Canada protesting, they were so incensed by the glossing over and the lack of action.

Quite frankly, I don't want them to get away with it again. I want to come back to the motion, however. I want to be really clear.

Madame Demers, you want action, so I'm wondering why not simply say “call on the government to take action”, because their idea of follow-up may be entirely different from your idea of follow-up. As you say, it's time for action.

Could we say “that the government report that action to the House”, to tell the House what it has done in plain and simple terms without all of this dancing around with obfuscation in UN reports?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Ms. Hoeppner.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something. I think the best thing we can do to protect women is to make sure that people who commit crimes against them go to jail and stay there for as long as they need to. That's the first thing we need to do. Terms like “follow up” and “take action” don't really serve the purpose. I have a woman in my riding in Long Plains Reserve who's been missing for a long time. I have another woman from Portage La Prairie who's been missing. I imagine the people who have perpetrated these crimes have criminal records. We have work to do for women. Instead of trying to push some political agenda, let's see what we can really do to protect women against criminals. We call on the government to follow up on the report, but what does “follow-up” mean?

[An hon. member]

Read the recommendation.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

We need to make sure that those who are victimizing women are not out in the open where they can continue to commit crimes. I support the amendment because at least there is some action taken. When we have access to those reports, we can see, and NGOs can see, what those reports are. But if we're serious about protecting women, we need to make sure that people who commit serious crimes are in jail. We should make sure that they do the time they have been given and that they aren't given double or triple for time served. I think that's what we need to be looking at.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Excuse me.

I'm going to have to call the question on the amendment soon because we're running out of time.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

A point of order, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Ms. Zarac wanted to speak.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

I would really appreciate it if Ms. Hoeppner did not challenge the integrity of the people sitting around this table who have long defended the rights of aboriginal women. This is not new and it is not political. Defending the rights of aboriginal women is not pushing some political agenda. Those were Ms. Hoeppner's words: “pushing some political agenda.“ I do not accept that we consider ourselves to be pushing some political agenda when we defend aboriginal women who are being killed and going missing!

We are not seeking stiffer prison sentences; that has nothing to do with it, Madam Chair. That is another debate, it has nothing to do with this. There is the political agenda. Madam Chair, I would like this to stop.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

It's part of the equation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Order.

Ms. Hoeppner, Madame Demers has the floor. She made a comment. If you want 30 seconds with which to respond to it, I'll allow that and then we must move on.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

I think this is a very important issue for all of us. Talking about putting individuals in jail who are committing crimes and making them stay in jail is part of the equation for protecting women. Unless we talk about that and make it part of this discussion, our motives will be in question. I apologize to Ms. Demers for offending her. That was not my intent at all. I think we have to talk about this and talk about the facts.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Ms. Hoeppner.

We will hear from Ms. Zarac and Ms. Mathyssen. We will not finish this if we don't. We'll put it off till next week again. If the committee believes that this is important enough to take on to the next meeting, I will bow to the will of the committee. We're chasing the clock here. Unless someone has something that adds something new to the discussion, we may need to go to Ms. McLeod's amendment so that we can have a vote.

Ms. Zarac.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

I would like to echo what Ms. Demers said. If this committee is truly serious, before sending people to jail, we will have to take steps to protect these women, to defend them and to find the guilty parties. We must take the first step, and we are having trouble taking it today. We must come together and, as Ms. Demers is proposing, take the steps necessary to protect these women and find those who are guilty.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

This business of putting people in jail is rather simplistic. The reports talk about how you protect women, in this case first nations women. The purpose is to reduce their vulnerability to make sure they're not at risk of violence, that they're not living in poverty, that they have housing and education, safe houses, and that they're not incarcerated at a rate well above the white population. That's what these reports are about. That's what we want action on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Excuse me, Mr. Harris, a committee member is speaking at the moment, please.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Sorry, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

If you wish to share what you're saying with us, we'd be glad to give you a moment.

Sorry, Ms. Mathyssen, what were you saying?

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Well, I'm finished. These reports are about how we address the vulnerability of aboriginal women. I've made a list. That's where the action needs to be. Everything else is a side show.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.

France, you had something new to add, and then Ms. McLeod will round it out before we call the question, because it's her amendment.

Yes?

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

In one sense, I am just passing through. However, before trying to put murderers in jail, we have to educate women and find out where they are most vulnerable, how they were abducted, etc.

As far as potentially jailing these people, Ms. Hoeppner, that comes under the Department of Justice. I am not a lawyer and I do not know if you are either, but I do know that that is another political debate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Now Ms. McLeod, and then I'm going to call the question on this.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Madam Chair, I would still like to ask that we have support for the amendment. We have heard our minister respond in the House that they are working very, very hard. I would anticipate with Sisters In Spirit that when they do the report, I think we have to respect the folks who are working very hard on this issue within that organization, and look towards how they respond back, because I believe those are the people who are working very hard, who will perhaps have some of the best answers for us.

So I ask you to support my amendment, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

I would like to just quickly reiterate what the amendment is to everyone here.

After “after 30 years in Canada”, the words are added:

Since the government is already scheduled to report to the United Nations...the report shall also be submitted to the Standing Committee on the Status of Women, and that NGOs such as Amnesty International have access to the said report.

And I understand, Madame Demers, that you would accept the friendly amendment to change “follow-up” to “take action”? Was that clear?

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

No, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

No, you want “follow-up” to remain.

Madame Demers, Ms. Mathyssen had said to say “take action” instead of “follow-up”.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

That is what I prefer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You prefer “take action”? “Take action” or “follow-up”?

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

“Take action”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Let's see the amendment first, as presented by Ms. McLeod.

Those in favour of the amendment?

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Which amendment? We have two now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

No. There is no amendment to vote on. Ms. Demers has accepted the change to the words “call on the government to follow-up”. She's accepted a friendly amendment of “to take action”. So the word is now “to take action on the reports”.

Now we have the addendum by Madam McLeod. So we're voting on Madam McLeod's addition.

I guess I will have to break this tie, and I always like to explain how I vote and why.

From listening to the debate, I heard Ms. Demers and people on one side suggest that they want action to be taken based on the recommendations out of Amnesty International and the CIDA report, and that those are clear recommendations. So this is a specific thing they're asking for.

Ms. McLeod asked for the government to report, when it finishes its report to the United Nations, and to share that report with the House and with the Standing Committee on the Status of Women and with NGOs such as Amnesty International.

I agree that in fact those are two different suggestions. I would like to vote against the amendment and ask Ms. McLeod to bring her amendment as a motion we can deal with separately.

It's a totally different thing she's asking for. This is not about the government reporting; it is about the government acting on the reports of others to take action to do things.

So I will vote against the amendment.

(Amendment negatived)

So the motion will now stand:

That the Committee call on the government to take action on the reports of both Amnesty International and the United Nations regarding the hundreds of aboriginal women who have disappeared or have been killed over the past 30 years in Canada and that the Committee report this motion to the House as soon as possible.

Lucky me again. I vote with the motion.

(Motion agreed to)

Would you like to bring your amendment as a separate motion, Madam McLeod, which could start with, “The government is already scheduled...”, without the “whereas”?

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Madam Chair, I think at this point it feels like we need to let some emotions ease. Maybe we can discuss this next week.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you. That's very generous of you, Ms. McLeod.

The meeting is adjourned.