Status of Women Committee on Oct. 22nd, 2009

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Irene Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

I concur. I think we need more women in leadership roles in the places of power, so young women can say “I can do it”.

It's interesting, when we ask women if they'll run federally, they say, “Oh no, I don't know enough about federal politics”. My response is always, “That never stopped a man”.

I wanted to come back to things going on with PSAC. Once an under-representation of women is identified in any particular occupational group within the public service, what initiatives are taken to improve that gender gap? Who's responsible to see that through? Is anyone held accountable?

[Allison Pilon]

We have the Employment Equity Act, so the employers within the federal public service, all the departments, have to have employment equity plans that look at their workforce and look at the external labour market, and take measures to improve those areas in which there is a gap in representation, an under-representation of women or other equity groups. They should sit down at the table with the unions, in preparing that employment equity plan, and come up with ways, solutions, positive measures to improve that representation. It could be training programs, it could be mentoring, it could be recruitment specifically targeted at different groups, specific outreach to different communities and so on. Unfortunately, what we're finding is oftentimes the unions aren't consulted fully.

We do have employment equity committees in a lot of the workplaces, and PSAC has representatives on those committees. I've been working with some of those representatives, and I think more of that committee work needs to be done. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of teeth. Unions aren't able to make complaints, for example, under the Employment Equity Act, when an employer isn't either consulting with the unions or with the equity groups or representatives of employees, or when they're not meeting their employment equity goals or plans, or coming up with plans. That's one of the areas where we'd like to see an improvement to the act, to have more enforcement and accountability, certainly with respect to consultation with unions.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

It sort of goes back to what you said about looking externally instead of looking within.

Madam Matsui, I liked your analogy about the iron fist in the velvet glove. How receptive have employers been to your checklist and your strategies? You said that companies with female directors do better, and it seems strange in a capitalistic society that employers would still be reticent. Has there been uptake and interest?

[Hiromi Matsui]

There has been some uptake and interest. I think the positive side has largely come from bigger companies. We have a lot of small and medium-sized companies in Canada, particularly in the trades area. To ask a small or medium-sized company to undertake something like a checklist of strategies.... We had a session with managers and owners of companies in Saskatchewan, and I have to be frank with you and tell you we had quite a mixed response from them. They're trying to get their bottom line to be black. It's what I said earlier, that diversity is a problem for them.

What we're trying to do is work with them, because often it's things they may not be aware of, some kind of exclusion behaviour, that kind of thing. But I think there is some openness, though I think right now, particularly small and medium-sized companies are struggling to survive, struggling to keep the small number of employees they have, so it's very challenging, even with some of the larger companies. We have found some very positive response among selected individuals. So it's yes and no.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

It's interesting, because I worked for a long time on employment equity in Ontario, and the corporate sector was saying we need women; we need to show the diversity of the population, whether it's first nations or immigrants or women, because it improves our bottom line. They were very, very open to it. The tragedy is that in 1995 that employment equity legislation was thrown out in the province of Ontario, so we're certainly behind the eightball.

I appreciate what you say. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Ms. Hoeppner.

Mr. Van Kesteren--finally.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thought it was the Liberals' side. Thank you for that.

Ladies, I have to tell you a story. When I was first asked into this committee, I felt fear and trepidation. I understand, then, some of your concern in moving into the workplace with the men. This is how I had felt. But I have to tell you that I've been welcomed with open arms. It's really been a good experience. I'm hoping that the same thing is happening in the workforce. I think maybe attitudes have changed.

Here's a little story. I remember when I was driving my daughter to her university for the first time. I had to drop her off, and we had a little conversation about her going to university. “Andrea”, I said, “your grandmother stayed home; most women at that time did. Your mother was able to work; there was a choice. When you leave school, you will have to work.” I suggested to her that we've probably witnessed the greatest revolution in possibly...I would almost say in mankind. We've seen a complete switch in values.

You know, I'm a little bit of a student of history. I think if anybody reads the paper, you'll know that the Anglican Church is having some difficulties, and the Roman Catholic Church in its 500 years--that's 500 years--waited to get the flock back. When we look at that and we understand that what we're seeing are strongholds that have been entrenched for generations, are we making progress? That's the first question.

Second, are we sometimes just pushing it a little too hard? Are we expecting more than what can be determined?

In light of that, what is the ratio, for instance, in the public workforce compared to the private? I think we've made great strides there. Are there areas like that where we've done relatively well, or exceptionally well, and others areas where we just need to drag them along?

[Patty Ducharme]

I'm sorry for moving this microphone; I don't like moving it when it's on. I know that the translator's ears are her tools of her trade--or his trade.

Are we making progress? I think if we were, we wouldn't be here. Quite honestly, I don't think we would be here making a presentation--

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Statistically, though, are we making progress?

[Patty Ducharme]

Statistically? There definitely are more women in the workplace. There's no question about that.

You talked about your partner, your wife, choosing to work. I have to work. I'm a single woman and I have to work. Nobody is going to feed me. I love what I do, so I'm very fortunate, but I have to work.

I think the statistics we've shared with you have shown that with respect to women in non-traditional work, we're not making great strides.

I apologize that you don't have a copy of my brief in writing. You will have it.

In terms of statistics for women, this is using as finely distilled numbers as we can get from Treasury Board. Bear in mind that Treasury Board won't give us the specific numbers for the job classifications. However, 20% of workers in the operational category, which is our blue collar working group, are women. In the technological category, only 32.5% are female workers. That's in the public sector.

It's of note that the 32.5% is only that high because there has been a reduction related to attrition with older male workers retiring. Women workers, because of the work type, are newer hires, so they're not in a position to actually retire.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Keeping on that public sector strain, what is the ratio between males and females in the public sector?

[Patty Ducharme]

I can't answer that question on the whole public sector.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

That seems to be something we just can't get. We recognize that there are some areas where there are deficiencies, but are there other areas where it's the other extreme and we have a larger percentage of women?

[Allison Pilon]

I can answer that. I don't have the figure in front of me, but I believe women make up 52% or 53% of the federal public service overall. That includes areas of traditional female occupations, such as clerical work, where women are overrepresented and clustered. The administrative support category, for example, comprises around 80% women. On the other end there are the technical and operational categories that are lower.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

You're not suggesting we try to equalize them. You don't want to equalize on the one side or reduce those numbers. I guess I'm saying that as we view history we see things are changing. We've seen some remarkable changes and some good movements.

[Patty Ducharme]

Are you suggesting we would want 80% of the administrative workers to be men and 20% to be women? Are you suggesting we don't want to see 50:50?

We'd love to see 50% of women able to work in the public service in all categories of work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I'm sorry, Mr. Van Kesteren, but you are now at six minutes and 39 seconds and I think we have to end it. You've gone over the five minutes. I allowed it because it was an interesting exchange and I think we all benefited from it.

I'm going to ask the witnesses to give us a one-minute summation because there are things they couldn't answer. If I let you do that and you have a comment on this last question, Ms. Matsui, you can roll it into your one minute.

After the witnesses I will do the thing on medicine.

[Hiromi Matsui]

Thank you. I will be very brief. I apologize because I have to leave very shortly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Then you have a minute, Ms. Matsui.

[Hiromi Matsui]

Thank you.

Most women are working in social service jobs. Do I think our expectations are a little on the high side? I think not. We live in very conservative times, but I'm encouraged that all of you are open, receptive, and listening. There are many issues of social justice, pay equity, and child care that need to be addressed within Canada. I thank you for the opportunity to talk with you all. If you would like more details, Danielle has my....

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Before you leave, Ms. Matsui, there are two things you mentioned in your paper and I wonder if we can get them. One is the 2002 Richard Bernardi--

[Hiromi Matsui]

I'll send it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

The other one is the Catalyst research.