And yet what we see in the public service is that 43% of the upper levels are now women, so there's room for movement.
I guess my next question is to Mr. Saulis, and I know this will have to be very quick. Obviously, when we're talking about violence against aboriginal women, there's a perpetrator, and I have to assume that the perpetrator is male. Are there programs for men to help move them beyond this kind of activity and become free of violence?