Status of Women Committee on Jan. 13th, 2011

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

I believe that. I believe those women were exploited and forced into the sex trade and they can prevent.... Women are very, very influential in our aboriginal communities. I want to acknowledge that with the chiefs.

As well, you mentioned the MRP bill. I believe that is going to help our women regain and reclaim the power not to be forced off of reserve, not to be put in a situation where they're exploited. I'm wondering if you could comment on that bill. Do you see that as a tool to empower them?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 30 seconds in which to respond.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

You could send it by mail if you don't—

[Chief Francine Meeches]

This is not anybody else's feeling; this is my own feeling.

There are two sides you have to look at when you think about matrimonial real property, especially in our community, and we deal with that. If we're in a situation where the male is from our community and the female is not a member...those types of things just don't jibe in our community where the wife can keep the home. It doesn't work like that. You have to be a member of our community in order to be entitled to a home in our community. That's just the way it is, and that would probably go in any community.

So when you talk about matrimonial real property and what rights does the female have if the husband should leave the home, you really don't have any rights. You either go back to the community you came from, or, if you're not status, you're basically not allowed to live there. That's just the way it is.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Now I'll move on to Ms. Mathyssen for the NDP.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for the kind welcome to Treaty 1 territory.

I have a number of questions. I'll try to be succinct.

The first is for Kelly. You talked about harm reduction. One of the realities we're facing with the Himel decision in Ontario is the attempt to decriminalize solicitation, bawdy houses, the johns. The federal government has appealed, but my great fear is that this will become a judgmental kind of response, that instead of seeing these women who have, as you say, been pushed into this role of sex workers, we won't have the intelligent discussion that this opportunity provides. You mentioned clean needles and talks, but it seems to me that when women are ready to make that transition, the resources aren't there. I wonder if you could comment on that.

[Kelly Gorkoff]

I guess the only comment is to completely agree with you. I think there has just been, for whatever reason--and I'm not really sure what the reason is, if it's some type of moral stigma, if it's some type of.... I could speculate until the cows come home on why we don't have exit programs. Perhaps it could be a lack of sustainability for programs. I think we've seen a lot of programs come and go and come and go and come and go. We have had programs. POWER in Winnipeg was foundational. Prostitutes and Other Women for Equal Rights was a foundational program, which, again, lost its funding. So it has had six or seven different iterations, and currently at Sage House.

So I'm not really sure that programs have necessarily gone away. I think they've been forced to reinvent themselves. I think, though, that it's a more complex process than simply very specific programs for prostitutes who want to leave because there's some stigma attached to that.

The women we talked to--half of them left and half of them were still involved--had trouble getting housing. So housing is an issue. They had trouble with sustainable employment. They mentioned good living conditions, national child care. These are all issues that are entwined for anybody who's trying to make a go in terms of a life change.

Specific programs are definitely necessary, but because the issues are much broader than that, I think it's the responsibility of a variety of different departments to assist.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

Melanie, you talked about the multifaceted holistic approach in terms of our response to crime. You mentioned that the recidivism among people who had gone through restorative justice was 89%. What's the recidivism rate for others who are incarcerated?

We've heard a lot about spending many millions of dollars on more prisons and more jail time. Is there a better way to spend that money?

[Melanie Nimmo]

Yes. I think many of us agree that there is a better way to spend the money. We know that incarceration in fact makes most offenders worse. It further fragments family systems that have already been fragmented enough due to colonization and the residential school system.

To back up and answer your questions about recidivism, our recidivism rate is 17%. Compared to male offenders who do not go through our program...it routinely hits about 50%. I was speaking specifically to that one program and the recidivism rate there.

But I think what we really need to attend to, which John Howard has been attempting to do for a while, is assisting with reintegration for those offenders who we do put into the correctional institutions. We're not saying that people should not be held accountable for their behaviour--that's not what we're saying--but we are recognizing that people do need more resources to facilitate their reintegration into society.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

[Kate Kehler]

Can I add to that, please?

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Yes, very quickly.

[Kate Kehler]

Thank you.

I just wanted to say, just to be specific about what we do with the restorative resolutions program, that they do go through cognitive errors and they do go through victim empathy. That's the same approach we take in our parenting class and our anger management class as well. We talk about all those issues. We talk about blended families. We talk about different cultures. Our approach is to give them the tools in order to avoid the violent behaviour so they don't have to fall back on violence.

Thank you.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Cathy, in regard to the program you talked about that pertained to trafficking of women in Canada, you said that it was a one-of-a-kind and very significant program. I wonder if you could tell us a little about it. Has there been an adequate response in the rest of Canada to the issue of the trafficking of women?

[Cathy Denby]

Well, I don't think our program is known across Canada yet. Just in terms of the research, or not in terms of the research, but.... It's just not known across Canada; we are so busy delivering the program that we haven't even been out there or able to promote it.

What we do need is a very comprehensive evaluation of the program. Of course, we don't have the dollars to do that. Our funding comes in about eight different pockets, from both the federal government and the provincial government, which is just enough to run the program. We do need a very comprehensive evaluation, I think, so that we can develop a very stellar template that can go across the provinces and across the country. In order to do that, we need the funding, core funding. We're grappling all the time. Every year we're writing proposal after proposal, trying to hold on to the five positions that we have to continue to deliver the program. Those are barriers.

We have another couple of barriers in terms of the program. One is the bridging programs into education. Women don't just get off the street, come out of the sex trade, and suddenly have all of the educational skills they need to go into a college program. There needs to be more bridging done. They do healing work first and then that piece needs to come in. And as for post-program, after being in a program for a while that is very sensitive to their needs, and where we understand and look after them quite well so they can academically succeed and gain employment, they still need that support after this as well.

So there are still some glitches in the program, but definitely, as for what we have developed, if you look at 40 graduates and each one of those going out onto the street and stopping one child from being exploited, generationally, that is a cost saving to the government of billions of dollars.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

That's it, Irene.

Now we're going to go into a second round. We have 20 minutes for the second round, so the second round will be four people at five minutes each. We're cutting it very fine here, so I'm going to really cut you short, guys, if you go over five minutes.

Starting with Ms. Neville for the Liberals, we'll have a five-minute round.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you.

I have two somewhat unrelated questions. One of them in part was directed at Melanie, but she's leaving.

It's okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

We'll give you a note for being late.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Melanie Nimmo]

I'm teaching about aboriginal policing and first nations policing.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Well, it's important.

I have two questions. First of all, how do we share best practices? We talked about Hollow Water being a template. How can that information be shared? We talked about Cathy's program at Red River. You talk about developing a template and getting it out there. It's about sharing best programs and best practices and getting that out there.

My other question is totally unrelated. We've talked a lot today about the issue of apprehension of children and violence against women, women going for support. What we also know anecdotally.... My question is about whether you have any statistical data as to whether children who are taken into care are more likely to be engaged in prostitution and anti-social behaviour, however one wants to describe it. I've heard stories from various organizations, but do any of you have any collected data, any of you?

Those are my two questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Well, we've asked that you stay behind to answer that. Would you like to go ahead, Melanie?

[Melanie Nimmo]

I would love to.

On your first question about sharing best practices, I think there are a couple of avenues. Of course, government reports...but who reads them?

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Right--your staff.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!