Status of Women Committee on Jan. 14th, 2011

[Michelle Simson, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Dawn?

[Dawn Harvard]

One of the things we had been proposing when we were at the announcement in Ontario for Jordan's Principle and the understanding that the needs of the child come first was that you can do your jurisdictional wrangling later, after the fact, but make sure the needs are met immediately and that nobody should be sitting waiting while the levels of government decide who is going to be responsible. Something along those lines needs to be put in place in these situations for addressing violence against aboriginal women and aboriginal women's services. We must stop fighting about who will be responsible, and make sure they get the needs met immediately; then we can discuss the issues afterwards. The model is out there. It's something we can certainly look to as a first step.

[Michelle Simson, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you. I really appreciate it.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

Thank you.

Madame Demers, for seven minutes.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being here today. I am quite moved by their testimonies.

Marlene, I, too, am angry. And I am very happy that you are angry. I like it when women get angry because that's when things get moving. It's important that women get angry in the communities.

We're here today because some of you are angry. In fact, Status of Women Canada isn't making progress on the aboriginal women file. We've decided that this must change. There is no progress when it comes to missing or murdered women or when it comes to programs. Despite everything that's happened, nothing is being done.

We wanted to see, on the ground, how we—you and us—could make sure that things change. As always, we alone cannot change things. The solutions cannot come from us. When we decide to implement certain solutions, they are not the right ones. Take for example the aboriginal matrimonial properties bill, Bill C-31. Solutions that come from us aren't good because our solutions are the solutions of white people, not the solutions of the aboriginal communities. Once again, as it was during colonization, it's white men and women thinking like white men and women. But this isn't what we want to do. For once, we want to give you the opportunity to make suggestions, share your ideas. It's up to you to tell us how we can help you. That's the only way to do it.

We must return to Ottawa and try to convince our colleagues, both from our respective parties and from the government, which is what you said needs to be done. We must take the solutions you're proposing and run with them. So far, everyone we have met has proposed solutions, like the I'm a Kind Man program. This program works. We must set aside funds for these kinds of programs, holistic programs that heal the family, both the originators of the abuse and the victims, who might be children. This is what we want to hear about.

[Marlene Pierre]

Thank you. Thank you very much for your understanding of what we were trying impart here.

I think we have to look at the political reality when it comes to the government who was ruling at that time.

Someone thinks sometimes we're ordinary Joes, but we're not. We listen to what is happening in the government with a steady ear and when is the best time to approach government. This is clearly not the right time to approach government when you want to refurbish and get a little bit more into your idea and support for it if the federal government is changed, and if even one or two people who were proponents for our cause are not there. We've learned very well that the bureaucracy has to also be changed. They have to be convinced that we are important too, and not just their high-paying jobs.

I know that you are collecting some very valid information. Nothing that I will say can add to that information about what the realities are out there, out on the street, and in behind the closed doors. But my reality is how do I help the women come together to make their ideas come and grow so that they can do the work in their own communities? That's the only way it's going to work. Having had almost 40 years of political experience in advocacy and a whole bunch of other things, I know that is the only answer. You could go and talk to all kinds of people--you need that element--but for your policies to be successful you need our people.

We can't always rely on our own leadership. Our own leadership denies us access. I'm lucky to be here. I found about this the day before yesterday. So we don't even have access of information and all of these things.

It's very important for a little group in the northern part of Ontario to know what is going on, when we need people who are going to work for that. I can't do it volunteering, as the other women are doing. We need to have resources. And I'm going to keep pressing that, no matter where I go, because without that we're not going to be as successful in saying what's wrong with the matrimonial property law, saying what's wrong, and how can we work together with the chiefs to make something real and good for our families.

I appreciate what is happening today. I know it may change in a few months—who knows. But I would like to see what we have said here today, all of us, go forward to become reality. And what is the percentage of that happening?

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

Thank you.

Mr. Rickford, please, for seven minutes.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and to my colleagues.

To the witnesses, thank you for your words today.

Just by way of a brief introduction, I've had an opportunity to interact with some of the witnesses here today to some degree, and just so my colleagues know, we have Christine from Lac Seul First Nation, whose territory we acknowledge being on today in Sioux Lookout.

Dawn, I appreciated your words with respect to the unique challenges that are faced by isolated communities. Very briefly, I spent the better part of eight years, Mrs. Pierre, as a nurse working in isolated first nations communities across Canada. Six of those years were spent in more than 20 communities in the riding of Kenora. I can assure you that I have a rich understanding of the issues structurally, the superordinate drivers of these unfortunate events, but also the more recent literature and the initiatives by a couple of governments, as Mrs. Simson pointed out, and you, Mrs. Pierre, and that this transcends or goes beyond political stripes. Like a number of other large first nations files, including the Indian residential schools file, which I was an associate lawyer for, representing more than 900 people in the Kenora riding--it was high time that it was dealt with, irrespective of who actually gave the apology.

That said, I also share your concern that seven minutes could never be enough. You're not alone in that regard. We've heard that from our colleagues. I'll try to start with some higher-level questions and maybe drill down to some problematic stuff in a second.

Mr. Barrett, you and Mrs. Pierre talked about a listening exercise that you felt was needed. I've made a thoughtful review of the literature, certainly with respect to the Sisters in Spirit recommendations, and more precisely what their stories tell us in Voices of our Sisters in Spirit. Perhaps in the second round I'll talk about their two-stream approach and get your thoughts on that.

I'll just ask you both very briefly, how do you envision that listening process taking place, outside of what's already occurred, for example, in the Sisters in Spirit recommendations that came from those literature sources?

[Rob Barrett]

Thank you.

Again, I'll go very quickly, because I think it's much more important to hear the voices of the women to my left than anything I have to say.

My exercise or experience in listening is just to begin with an open mind and listen. Although everybody is unique, and their own individual journey is unique, there's a lot of commonality here. The stories I hear are absolutely heartbreaking. Even preparing our presentation, the emotions that we felt ranged from complete sadness to shamefulness that we are a part of this society, to absolute anger and outrage. But I don't walk in their shoes. The role of our centre is to accompany people in their journey, and--

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

I appreciate that, Mr. Barrett. I want you to understand that I think we're at the point where we understand everybody's voice is going to be important in this. You can't talk about the education of white people structurally in our education system and in our penal institutions without saying that all voices need to be at the table here to a certain extent. I see Dawn maybe grappling with that concept a little bit, and that's fair enough.

Before I get to you, I want to acknowledge, and perhaps you can build on this, Mrs. Jurivee's comments earlier about two important things: the disparity in funding between INAC shelters and provincial shelters, and I think we gained an appreciation for that in Sioux Lookout and the tremendous demands on that specific shelter for a catchment area that the province simply wasn't able to recognize. I'm not trying to slip out of anything as the federal government and the government of the day, as Mrs. Pierre referred to us earlier, but that is an important issue.

Mrs. Pierre, you mentioned in your speech that we seem to have a lot of different places where people can go. It's a bit fractious. There's a bit of “apply to this program, apply to that program”. There's a myriad of provincial and federal programs. The family violence initiative that we introduced is going to make an attempt to coordinate those approaches, but I'm concerned that we're missing organizations that don't have access to that funding.

Go ahead, Mrs. Pierre.

[Marlene Pierre]

There are not only organizations like ours, but it's in the smaller communities where this happens. I can think of Marathon. I can think of Longlac and Geraldton. They all have higher populations. There is so much going on with infrastructure. Towns are having to revitalize because of the economics. All these kinds of things impact on what people get to know about, to access, or to even organize themselves around. And most of them are organizing themselves around finding a job or relocating.

So we have all these little one-industry towns that are no longer one-industry towns, because there's nothing there. And I don't like generalizing, but I am sure there is now an increase in violence. At one point there was less family violence, but now that has increased. You have the employment. You have all these different organizations that exist out there. But again, the incrementalism from both the federal and the provincial.... Their approach is to look at a community to see what's needed--and you've probably heard the word so much now--holistically. We've heard it--

[A voice]

Collaboration.

[Marlene Pierre]

Yes, exactly. Let's just say that we must not just say we're going to work together. We have to work together. That's all there is to it. And whether or not I like you doesn't matter. Whether you're that government or this government or whichever level it is doesn't matter. We have to be able to say to you, and to you collectively, this is what's going on, and this is what we need.

I think I could end it there.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

Thank you very much. That was more than seven minutes.

I have some questions for you, Ms. Pierre. You've touched on a number of things, and they keep coming back to funding. We were very concerned, profoundly concerned, with the changes Status of Women Canada made to the funding formula in 2006 and with the deterioration, or what we see as the deterioration, in support and appropriate support.

My question, essentially, is that we keep hearing that there must be core funding. We also keep hearing that the problem with the current situation is that there will be needs, very clear needs, in the community. But it doesn't quite fit the description you see on the website or the program that might be offered. So there is this effort made to try to make a square peg fit into a round hole. And in the ensuing effort, there's also the reality that a lot of time is being devoted to creating proposals that have to be re-created 12 or 18 months later, and the real work that has to happen isn't being done.

Certainly I'd like to hear from everyone. Is that a fair assessment? Is that an accurate reality for the community?

[Marlene Pierre]

Absolutely. Getting that information out into the community is another big problem.

My own experience is that we got the notification that Canadian Heritage was going to do.... They made their announcement. We had to have the proposal in by December, or we had to work on it in December and have it submitted by February. This is January. We just got approval in December. Why is it taking so long to get from the beginning of the process to the end of the process? We still have lots of work to do to organize ourselves to have this leadership forum for aboriginal women in our territory.

The criteria are just not real.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

You're dealing with things that are very real and very important. Thank you.

I want to go to Nishnawbe Aski Nation. I believe, Madame Simard, you were the one talking about treatment and the fact that--no, it was Chief Crane, actually--women can't go into treatment if they have a criminal record. This seems very strange to me. These are precisely the women who need treatment. Where did that policy come from? What's the rationale?

[Chief Lorraine Crane]

I wish I had the answer. I know that's what happens. I've heard that's one of the criteria they have to meet. If you have an outstanding court case, upcoming court case, you're not accepted. I don't think I'm making that up. I know that I've heard that.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

It's not unlike what we heard in a number of places, that women cannot come into a shelter if they are intoxicated--

[Chief Lorraine Crane]

Did I say shelter? I didn't mean shelter.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

No, no, I understand. It's just sort of the same irrational kind of policy. People who need are denied for what seem to be rather arbitrary rules in some regards.

I have another question in regard to your policing. You have your own Nishnawbe Aski police force, and one of the things that we heard in the process of our study is that for a lot of aboriginal women, social services and police services are not very helpful. In fact, they're very often judgmental and they re-victimize the women and families that they're supposed to help.

I wonder, in terms of the experience here in the Thunder Bay area, how your approach with your own police force helps the people involved.

[Christine Simard]

I'm going to speak before Chief Crane.

The Nishnawbe Aski police service is just a police service. They're like peace officers. They're not a fully designated police force. Second of all, her community, Slate Falls First Nation, has about 260 members on reserve and they have two police officers who work full-time, 24 hours a day. They try to do shift work. Meanwhile, in the town of Upsala, you might have three or four OPP officers policing a hundred residents.

When you look at the disparity between population and policing, and NAPS being underfunded...they're often overworked. They're unable to participate within the community and really do their job thoroughly. There's a high burnout rate with our police officers as well.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

My final question is for the Catholic Family Development Centre. You talked about incarceration rates, 200 aboriginal women yearly. You see 200 women, some of them mandated by the judicial system. I'm wondering about incarceration, in terms of these women. You described them as abused, battered, demeaned, and in terrible, terrible situations.

Is incarceration the answer? We have a reality in this country where we're building more prisons and financing more cells. Is that the direction we should be taking?

[Rob Barrett]

Absolutely not. It's absolutely backwards. We should be taking that money and reaching out to these women and giving them a chance. I think what we've heard, what I've heard, certainly, is that every time these women take a step forward, the rug's pulled out from underneath them, time and time again.

When we see them behind bars, it's the same stories we hear, and it doesn't matter whether they come from remote communities or right here in Thunder Bay or from southern Ontario. They have been battered and beaten. It just keeps going on and on again, and at a certain point some of them are even charged with domestic violence themselves because they're just so sick and tired of it. I'm sick and tired of it, so I could imagine how they feel.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

Thank you very much.

Now to our five-minute round. With the indulgence of the committee, Chief Crane wanted to get a word in, I think.

[Chief Lorraine Crane]

I'm sorry. You beat me before. I wanted to add on to what Christine was saying about NAPS. Is that okay?