Status of Women Committee on March 22nd, 2010

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you. No, that's it. Sorry about that.

Ms. McLeod.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I also would like to really thank all the witnesses. It's been a really informative day.

Also, I want to note your comment on spending some time on the definition. Certainly when we prepare our report, we'll need to spend a little bit more time making sure we have a definition that's really suitable for moving forward, so I appreciate that comment.

I can't remember our original definition--it seems so long ago--but I think it is worthy for us to note and discuss.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

That makes us, as MPs, a non-traditional workplace; you know that.

I just thought you should think of that one.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I have two questions about some statistics, and then another question.

Ms. Calder, you said there is a decrease in trades and an increase in college participation. Would you care to speculate on what's behind that at all? Do you have any sense of what's happening there?

[Carey Calder]

One of the things we're noticing when we're talking about the participation of aboriginal women is that all aboriginal women tend to find professions that end up contributing back to families and communities. For quite some time we actually haven't done, and still continue not to do, a very good job, when we're doing census information, of capturing statistics of where we're already working and where we have been working. We tend to stay in our homes, sometimes caring for children longer but also caring for the elderly, and yet that's not being taken into account as being an actual certified personal support worker. With things like midwifery, traditionally if you're doing that but you don't have a mainstream certificate, that's not being captured.

So a lot of this work has already been done. As opportunities are increasing for post-secondary, we're finding oftentimes that the interest lies in health, education, and the types of fields we are already working in.

That's not to say that we don't absolutely need specific supports for women who are looking outside of those traditional roles. We do, but when we put the emphasis in the promotion to say, “Get a job in the trades”, or, like my pen says, “Apprenticeship is hip”.... But what does that mean, and how is that actually contributing back? So we are suggesting to really look at supports for what we are already working towards.

The other point I was really trying to make on that is that despite the fact that we are performing...and aboriginal women are exceedingly successful at getting their post-secondary when that opportunity is available to them. There are a lot of barriers to that opportunity being available, but when it is, there are not always employment opportunities at the other end.

We know we're still dealing with racism. We know we're still dealing with sexism. We know we're still dealing with sometimes lack of opportunities or, I guess, “checkmark-box-able” opportunities in some locations; it might be informal work that is available in their community rather than perhaps what would be considered a job on the census.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

My next question is around statistics, and I know again I'm asking for a bit of speculation from either Ms. Thomas or Ms. Bailey.

You were giving some statistics on Métis women. Proportionately you were saying they were more represented in the non-traditional trades. Can you speculate as to why that is happening?

[Monell Bailey]

I think it's partially because of training dollars that have been used to train women. I'm going to revert to Saskatchewan because that's where I'm from, and I'm a little more knowledgeable about what's happened out there. A lot of training has been done. A lot of women have trained in the non-traditional roles of heavy equipment, plumbing, and electrical. They have taken advantage of that training and gone into the trades areas and been very successful.

I'm talking about a lot of our urban people, because they aren't bombarded with quite the same number of issues when it comes to child care and transportation and what not.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

So have you had a focus on that area for awhile then?

[Monell Bailey]

Yes. I think it's probably been the past 10 years that Saskatchewan has really been emphasizing women in the trades.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Great.

Perhaps I have time for one other quick one.

Ms. Phaneuf, you have airport maintenance courses for women in the Northwest Territories. Was that part of your mining...? I don't think I heard you talk about that one at all.

[Lorraine Phaneuf]

They took the summer maintenance, and hopefully the next piece they'll take is the winter maintenance. We picked that one because that's a transferable skill. If they did not work out, if they went to the mines, that is a skill that is needed in every community that has fly-in in the Northwest Territories. Every community needs someone to clear the runway.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Was it part of the larger project, but sort of a subsection?

[Lorraine Phaneuf]

It was supposed to be an exposure course. It's a department in the GNWT where they do community-based training and they do that piece. So they helped us out with that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Desnoyers.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Welcome to our witnesses.

What the witnesses are telling us is very interesting indeed. We have already heard at length from witnesses and organizations on the subject of non-traditional fields, and one thing bothers me. Generally speaking, aboriginal women seem to experience far more obvious problems that women living in urban areas or non-aboriginal women. Aboriginal women have problems getting access to training. Not everyone has access to projects like yours in the different provinces.

That raises some questions in my mind about the situation of the different bands across the country and also in Quebec. In some communities in Quebec, and indeed in the North, women are experiencing major problems and cannot find any work. Training does not appear to be an important tool.

I would imagine that given your knowledge of your communities, you could tell me if there was an even stronger mindset present among aboriginal men, one that discourages women from leaving their communities or reserves and pursuing an interesting career?

I believe you have some statistics on this subject.

[Carey Calder]

I'll try to answer that. That's a really big question.

I think you are hitting on a really important point. Aboriginal women are performing at lower indicators when it comes to social determinants of health than all other Canadians, and it's not a matter of what aboriginal men are doing on reserve. And even if you were to look at that example, that's a very small segment of the aboriginal population. It doesn't include Métis and Inuit.

One of the bigger things that we've been looking at in the work that we've been doing is really connecting how, holistically, it is difficult to have one program or one strategy that doesn't address some of the other realities that we continue to face. So when aboriginal people and communities are performing at a different level, the comparisons no longer relate. Living in poverty, not having access to health care, not having access to food or shelter--these certainly change the priority of whether or not you're deciding to get into a certain profession.

We talk a lot about aboriginal youth being the largest part of our population right now, but who's having those aboriginal youth? Aboriginal women have been starting their families, raising their families, and not participating in some of the other stimulus programs that have been available. So by the time they're ready to get in there, did they have a chance to finish high school? Did they have a chance to go to post-secondary? At what point are they going back and starting their career? I think all of the different layers that contribute to the realities of aboriginal people is what you're seeing in just this one example.

That's a very big question. We could probably spend a couple of months just on that alone.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Are there any support groups or organizations in your communities that provide women working in non-traditional fields with opportunities to meet and exchange ideas?

You spoke at length about discrimination and harassment in the workplace. That is no doubt a reality, because these problems are often present in our plants. Most likely the situation is even worse in remote regions. I think there should be a working group to support training so that women can provide each other with the tools they need to better take on all of these jobs in non-traditional fields generally filled by men.

[Denise Thomas]

In Manitoba, we have a Métis women organization that's part of the Manitoba Metis Federation--she has a seat on the board--so anything for training for women, the organization does give a lot of support to the Métis women of Manitoba. We give them a lot of support.

Well, I'm with the mainstream Manitoba Metis Federation, and we have a spokesperson, so we give a lot of support to the women who want to get into the non-traditional trades.

We have a lot of success stories. One of the things that we brought here today is a book that profiles the impact of the Métis labour force development program, Métis Works. If we can, we can leave this book for your information.

One of the examples of what we've done for the education of the Métis women--and for students as a whole, but it's been really helping the women--is we have a program that's called Standing Tall. It copies Tu Tangata from New Zealand. It's a pilot project, and we have videos on this. It is really helping the students to get a better education because this is where the parents are working within the school system. Through our aboriginal human resource development dollars, we are able to bring in some students--I think they were all Métis women because I was signing their cheques--to work within the schools to help the parents to be more involved in the education system. So that was a real success story.

Of course, we did a partnership and we're very much hoping that we continue with the Standing Tall project. We were able to second a school teacher from one of our school divisions to work with us on this. We do give a lot of support to the women in our province, and we'll continue to do so. But for non-traditional trades I think our problem is that a lot of them are in these non-traditional trades and their wages are not equitable with the men's.

We also do community-based training. We held community-based training for such things as firemen, and such things as heavy equipment operators. We've done that. I see one of my women who is operating one of those big machines. We're really proud of all that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Ms. Thomas.

We've gone over time on that one.

Irene Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to come back to the list that Madam Thomas provided. I think it's a significant list. Of course, we heard this from other presenters, and it revolved around the need for safe, affordable, reliable child care. I think the reality is we've heard from many witnesses that this applies to women all across the country, this need to know that they can access proper child care and their kids will be safe.

I think there was mention made of pursuing a co-op, and I wondered, what do you need to establish that co-op? Have you been able to explore that? Is this a possibility?

[Lorraine Phaneuf]

I don't know. The way we think, we were thinking a co-op could be formed in a small community so the child care provider would actually work for the same person as the people who are running the bulldozers. I don't know exactly how that would work, but you'd have to have the backing of industry if you did it that way, or it could be a co-op with the women. But then there's always the issue of reimbursing them. Would it be equitable? There are so many factors to take into account.

We've made a lot of presentations to mining companies on how that could work in mines. The logistics alone of the mining industry in the Northwest Territories are not conducive to family life.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Yes, and we found that there was a proposal by which the government would encourage the private sector businesses to create child care spaces, and I think they offered up lots of money, but for practical reasons there was no uptake. So now we're back to a community need and a need to establish some kind of solid, community-based child care system, one that's free-standing, safe, and affordable and that doesn't put a burden on parents. I was interested in that.

Also, in terms of this list and in response to Mr. Desnoyers' question, Ms. Calder, you talked about the disadvantages or the challenges, including safe, affordable housing. Would you add the need for safe, affordable housing to the list of needs for supporting women in the communities?

[Denise Thomas]

Yes, definitely.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay.

I guess finally—and I'm back to the list—I was quite interested in the fourth proposal, that “The United States has had affirmative action programs in place for some time, and indications are that they've worked to increase the participation of women”, and that we need these in Canada.

What do the American programs look like? Could you describe them to me? Do you have a sense of how they work?

[Denise Thomas]

Do you mean in the United States?