Status of Women Committee on March 22nd, 2010

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I'd like to call the meeting to order.

I would like to welcome the witnesses today. As you well know, we are looking at discussing, and hearing from you about, your experience and any information you have to offer us with regard to the participation of women in non-traditional roles.

I want to welcome all of you today: the Status of Women Council of the Northwest Territories, with Ms. Phaneuf; the Native Women's Association of Canada, with Ms. Calder; the Métis National Council, with Ms. Watteyne; the president of the Métis Women of Saskatchewan, Madam Bailey; and Denise Thomas, the vice-president of the Southeast Region of the Manitoba Métis Federation.

I'll just quickly let you know what we do usually at these things. You have 10 minutes. There are three groups. Many of you are in one particular group. Each of the three groups—i.e., the Métis National Council, the Native Women's Association of Canada, and the Status of Women Council of the Northwest Territories—has 10 minutes to present to us. I will give you a flag when your time is ending so that you can wrap up. After that, there will be a question-and-answer series in which the members of the committee will ask you questions and you will answer.

We should begin with the Status of Women Council of the Northwest Territories.

Ms. Phaneuf, welcome.

[Lorraine Phaneuf, Executive Director, Status of Women Council of the Northwest Territories]

Good afternoon, everyone.

I've journeyed since Friday, because I stopped here and there. It's a long journey to get here, but I'm very happy to be here.

This year our council is just finishing up the Northern Women in Mining, Oil and Gas project. Along with our other duties, we have done a special project around non-traditional trades for women who are under-represented in the workforce.

I'll just start by giving a brief description of the project.

The Status of Women Council and their project partners introduced Northern Women in Mining, Oil and Gas, a project that attempted to answer the following research question. Given the current population of unemployed and underemployed women in the Northwest Territories, will a dedicated women-only, partnership-based, and strategic approach to training and development be successful in increasing the interest levels and participation and retention rates of women in industrial and trades-based occupations in the northern mining, oil, and gas industries?

Having almost concluded the project, we realize our research question was too long. Were we to do another project, we would actually probably shorten up that research question a little bit.

The anticipated barriers, or social challenges, for women to enter the trades-based occupations were lack of appropriate education and skills, often; sometimes the only primary caregiver; limited training opportunities; financial restrictions; perception and traditional perspective that trades occupations are not for women; and social issues around abuse and addictions. The top three barriers identified by applicants, and consistent with proposal research, were the lack of the right skills and education, financial concerns, and an image that it's a man's working environment.

In the project, we did three different types of courses. We did exposure courses, which were five-week courses offered mainly in the evening around carpentry. We did do two community-based projects. One was in Trout Lake, which is a community of 90 people, and we did an HEO, heavy equipment operation, course there. We also did a summer airport maintenance course in Hay River, which is a bigger community in the north, with perhaps 1,000 to 1,500 people. Both of those were very successful. The women who took the training are looking for additional training. Some are working, some are faced with daycare issues, but they actually passed the course while we were there.

We did a trades access program, which was an academic program that challenged women to enter the trades entrance exam. What they did is mostly an upgrading kind of education to help them pass the trades entrance exam. The intention was for the women to write the trades entrance exam and move into apprenticeship programs, and attain employment in the trades. Prior to the conception of the project, we had made some connections with the mining companies and they had intended on hiring women once they passed. They did hire three of the women, but with the downturn of the global economy, we're still waiting for them to hire more.

We also did a building trades helper program, which was a 12-week program. It was combined hands-on training with basic academics, and a Ready to Work North program. It prepared women for entry-level positions in the trades industry. We did have a lot of success around those kinds of courses, and the mines were very happy to hire them.

The biggest issue with the mining in the Northwest Territories is because of the two weeks in, two weeks out, so if mothers are single parents, it's often very challenging for them to find a place for their youngsters.

In the project we did a wraparound service, so women in the project were offered all different kinds of wraparound services such as upgrading, so if they were having trouble at school, they could go to a tutor after hours. We did referrals to get them into housing, and we tried to get them child care, all those kinds of things. In the north they have a student FSA program, which is like a student loan program where, if people work in the north, their loans are forgiven.

So they all got those. Personal counselling, housing advocacy, transportation...the women were given the funds to travel from the communities, which in the Northwest Territories can be very expensive. We gave them work clothing, phone cards, grocery gift cards, and anything to help them be successful in their programs.

In year one we had 37 applications; in year two, 43 applications; and in year three, 73 applications. Now that we're waiting for funding we have women on waiting lists trying to get into the program. After three years our program is beginning to be known in the north, so women are interested, but we're waiting for new funding.

On the challenges for our program, academic entry requirements for parts of the training made it difficult to recruit qualified candidates, so a lot of the women who applied did not qualify for the upgrading at Aurora College, which is a community college in the north.

The retention of women beyond the training into trade-specific apprenticeship programs was not always successful. Often that was due to child care or addictions issues. Participants in the programs did not seem interested in pursuing careers in the trades, despite the barriers being addressed. So probably the next thing we will research is why they entered. There are different ideas about why women do that. If they are in certain programs it might be a way for them to qualify for other programs. We're not quite sure why they would enter if they weren't interested.

The mining industry requires skilled professions and educational requirements. Traditional values and child care responsibilities pose significant challenges in filling these positions. A lot of that is due to the two weeks in, two weeks out. Of course the economic recession did not allow for new staff hires.

On the successes, 23 women successfully completed the Building Trades Helper and Trades Access programs. Women have written their trades entrance exams. Five women have attained employment post training and are still working. We have found with the program that although they may not have gone into trades-related programs, they are now working. They might be working at a library; it might not be with a shovel, but they are working. So in terms of that we've had huge successes.

Am I out of time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have two minutes.

[Lorraine Phaneuf]

Okay.

I'll give you an example of one of the very first participants. When she entered into the program she had just moved from Nunavut and was couch-surfing in Yellowknife. After having all the wraparound services, she now works at BHP and is making a very good salary. Her 15-year-old son is also working. He works at Boston Pizza. This woman was about 43 years old and she had never really had gainful employment. Now she's working and her son is working.

She once said to me, which really touched me, that having her own money--being given that opportunity--meant she was the boss of herself now and she didn't have to rely on supports in the Northwest Territories for living or even to take care of her boy. She's very independent. She's been in the De Beers posters and in the paper. She's almost a bit of a celebrity in the Northwest Territories. She's gone from that level of dependency on government support to making close to $100,000 in three years. They're not all like that, but she was one of the very first women who applied. Throughout those three years the counsellors at the Status of Women have worked with her and encouraged her to remain in her employment.

So we're a little challenged as to what we'll do if we don't get the funding, because we've created a need in the Northwest Territories. Not only do women in the program come for advice, but women in the trades in general come for advocacy.

That's where we sit in the Northwest Territories.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Ms. Phaneuf.

Now, from the Native Women's Association of Canada, we have Ms. Calder.

[Carey Calder, Manager, Labour Market Development, Native Women's Association of Canada]

Thank you.

Good afternoon, everybody.

My name is Carey Calder. I am a two-spirited Ojibway woman originally from northwestern Ontario, and I relocated to Ottawa about seven years ago. I am the manager of labour market development with the Native Women's Association of Canada, otherwise known as NWAC.

NWAC is one of the five national aboriginal organizations in Canada and the only one specifically representing aboriginal women. Our mission is to facilitate aboriginal women's meaningful participation in the development of legislation and policies that reflect the unique needs of aboriginal women.

We strive to highlight best practice models and policy using a culturally relevant gender-based analysis in all of the approaches to the work that we do. NWAC has led the development of the CRGBA, or culturally relevant gender-based analysis tool, which provides a holistic policy perspective on where aboriginal women stand on issues and is particularly relevant to identify desired outcomes and measures of performance.

For example, using the CRGBA, one might look at the social determinants of health that have been identified in Canada, in that just being aboriginal already puts you at a disadvantage but being aboriginal and female is a double disadvantage. So we have to take that into consideration when looking at policies and programs.

NWAC is the expert at applying the CRGBA lens to legislation and policy, so it is with great interest that we are able to participate here today and provide some comments on increasing the participation of women in non-traditional occupations.

Our key message today in using the CRGBA context is to appropriately support the participation of aboriginal women in non-traditional occupations: first, to ensure that aboriginal women have equitable access and are represented and reflected in non-traditional occupations; and secondly, that aboriginal women are under-represented in all occupations, yet we have rising rates of attainment in post-secondary in the business, health, and education fields.

Further to the first point, just to start, in order to increase participation we must ensure that aboriginal women have equitable access and are represented and respected in the non-traditional occupations.

Aboriginal women who seek a rewarding career in trades, industry sectors, and apprenticeships continue to face barriers that impact equitable access and participation levels. We must first address the existing barriers that are beyond the control of job seekers. We have to consider that gender-based analysis, and certainly a culturally relevant gender-based analysis, was not utilized when recruitment strategies were originally designed. The planning around how this might have happened or evolved wasn't part of the initial discussions, so now we have to find ways to ensure that women have access and are equitably represented in all these occupations.

It is not enough to simply state a target for participation levels, although that would at least be a start. We have to make sure that all avenues and doors are opened and that we are adequately prepared to meet the unique challenges of aboriginal women.

So it's things like, how are maternity leave policies built into career plans? Is it encouraged within those environments? How does it affect their seniority when they come back to work?

We need real strategies to address the racism and the sexism that still exists in these environments. Conversations held within male-dominated work environments are not always conducive to a healthy welcoming environment for women. So we must recognize that there may need to be a cultural shift within certain environments in order to increase the participation levels in a sustainable way.

In terms of some of the recommendations, we have seen a growing focus on getting aboriginal people, in particular youth, into trades through marketing and promotional campaigns. Yet this often lacks a connection with the employers. There needs to be real and actual opportunities for paid employment or on-the-job training, and employer commitments to apprenticeship agreements. This means shifting attention to the employers so that the demographic breakdown of their workforce is, firstly, shared, and that it is clearly understood. So how have they been performing in their own recruitment and retention strategies; and does the governing legislation, wherever those employers are located, also support the strategies they have in place? What is their demonstrated commitment to ensure aboriginal workers are well represented in the workforce? And more to the point, what specific considerations have been made for aboriginal women?

Secondly, one of our messages is that to increase the participation rates of aboriginal women in one particular sector, we must first look at the fact that aboriginal women are under-represented in all occupations, despite raised rates of attainment in post-secondary in the business, health, and education fields.

There's a noted decrease in the proportion of aboriginal women who are obtaining their trades certificates. For example, between 2001 and 2006 it went from 12% to 9%, and yet there's an overall increase in educational attainment based on the completion of college diplomas and university degrees. In 2006 aboriginal women were more likely to have a college and university credential than their male counterparts.

It's also important to note that the gap between aboriginal women and non-aboriginal women narrowed between 2001 and 2006. Basically what we're seeing is a trend toward aboriginal women who are demonstrating significant successes when it comes to post-secondary attainment. They're not necessarily always getting into the trade.

The recommendation based on that is that due to the fact that aboriginal women are under-represented in all occupations, we need to promote that opportunities appropriately be in place to ensure that demonstrated successes are then realized in actual employment. Focus employment initiatives for women in areas where they're attaining higher education based on where they want to be. Meet the need and the demand, which then provides the framework and the best practice models to apply in this area of work that you're doing. It's important that we not be reactionary in our responses to what is the sector of the day and try to stream people into certain areas.

In closing, we also want to address the term “non-traditional occupations”. The assumption there is that the reference here is to occupations within male-dominated environments such as trades, transport, and industry. It's critical to point out that women continue to be under-represented in management occupations generally. One could argue that senior management and decision-making occupations could also be defined as non-traditional for women, and that strategies, policies, and discussions in this area also need to be addressed. Strategies must provide models of inclusion of aboriginal women as full participants in the economic benefits that Canada has to offer.

Thank you for the opportunity to be able to present to the Standing Committee on the Status of Women and we look forward to our continued involvement in this area.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Ms. Calder. That was seven minutes: awesome.

I just want to let everyone know that NWAC brought a document, but it's only in one language. It's not in English and French. There are copies of it if you wish and you can just pick it up and take it. If you don't wish to, we won't distribute it because of the rules. If you wish to, you can have it.

The third group is the Métis National Council.

You obviously have decided who will do the speaking. Who will do the speaking?

[Monell Bailey, President, Métis Women of Saskatchewan, Métis National Council]

We're going to both speak.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Both Ms. Bailey and Ms. Thomas.

[Monell Bailey]

Yes, I'll speak first and then Ms. Thomas.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Okay, good. You share ten minutes, though.

[Monell Bailey]

Yes, we will.

I'd like to begin by thanking all the honourable members for inviting the Métis National Council to appear before you today.

The Métis National Council represents the Métis Nation at the national level. It speaks on behalf of the entire Métis Nation. Women account for 50.6% of all Métis in the Métis homeland region of Canada, which includes the provinces of Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and British Columbia. The 1996 census reveals that altogether there were a little over 170,000 Métis women in our homeland.

Our population is very youthful, with 25% of Métis women in the homeland region under 15 years old and 26% between the ages of 15 and 29. In other words, the majority of our Métis women are children and youth.

We come before you today largely to talk about their future. Many of us have made career choices imposed by our times and circumstances. Although we've seen rapid change in gender-based conceptions of female roles and occupations in our own lifetime, the task is far from complete and the results are far from satisfactory. Our hope is that through the work of this committee and the persistent efforts of our leaders in industry and government, we will create a more level playing field for aboriginal women in the Canadian labour market and a better, more promising future for our young Métis women.

It's important to put to rest one major misconception about Métis and other aboriginal women. It's a belief that we're not in the workforce. In fact when we look at it, the labour force participation rates of Métis women 15 years and older in 2006 was about 67%, which is above average for women generally in the homeland region. Overall, 62.8% of women are in the workforce. Even after adjusting for differences in age and profiles between Métis and the general population, Métis female participation rates are very close to the equivalent rates in the general population. Métis women are already integrated into the Canadian economy and it's a fiction to maintain otherwise.

The simple fact of the matter is that the economic integration has not led to equitable benefits. Our unemployment rates remain significantly high, and therefore the proportion of our working age population with a job is also lower than for the general population. But nothing illustrates the disparities between Métis women and the general population better than employment income.

The committee should be aware that based on the 2006 census, the average employment income of an adult male in Canada was $45,588 in 2005. Male incomes are really what we have to compare ourselves to if we are looking at gender equality. Unfortunately, we have a long way to go as far as the income of Métis women is concerned. We are at a mere $23,253 per year, which is 48.8% less than mainstream males.

Our submission contains a table that provides information on the differential between male and Métis female employment income for each of the provinces within the Métis homeland. It is interesting to find that the largest differential exists in Alberta. The province had a booming economy at the time of our last census, and boasted the highest employment income of any province in Canada. But the women were just totally bypassed. Our average income in Alberta was still only at $24,060 a year, so we weren't in any better shape in Alberta than we were anywhere else in the homeland as far as our income rates go.

There are also disparities in the income of Métis women relative to Métis men. The average employment income of a woman is also lower than women in the general population by about 20% in the provinces of Ontario and Alberta. In Manitoba and Saskatchewan it's about 15% lower.

It's not our intention to bombard you with statistics. If the committee wants any more information on this matter we'd be happy to supply you with all the data we have.

Although Métis women participate fully in the Canadian economy, on average we have been relegated to lower-paying jobs. The question is why, and what we can do about it. There are a huge number of factors at play here. We do not pretend to have all the answers for you today.

There's no question the gender bias in occupational choice and hiring decisions is fundamental to understanding any differential between working men and women. High dropout rates and poor education attainment levels are also factors in explaining poor employment outcomes. Persistent discrimination and stereotyping against women and aboriginal people, though hard to measure, also no doubt contribute to the raising of the bar so high that few make it to the top.

However, fundamentally we find that Métis women tend to find employment in the more menial, less remunerative occupations within occupational sectors occupied by women. Métis women are generally drawn to the same types of occupations as women in the general population. We show a significantly higher propensity for work in sales and service occupations, which account for 39% of the Métis in the experienced workforce, compared with only 30% of women in the general population.

Within the Métis homeland, our occupational profile follows a pattern common to all women, with concentrations in the service sector, in occupations such as retail sales, health, education, government, and administration. A detailed occupational breakdown would show that, compared with women in the general population, Métis women tend to congregate in lower-paying jobs within these sectors.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Ms. Bailey.

Ms. Thomas, you have three minutes left.

[Denise Thomas, Vice-President Southeast Region, Manitoba Métis Federation, Métis National Council]

Okay.

This is where we become very interested in the concept of women's participation in non-traditional occupations. This concept is usually applied to occupations that traditionally have been held predominantly by men.

The U.S. Department of Labor defines a non-traditional occupation as an occupation in which women account for 25% or less of the workforce. However, alternative definitions are possible, depending on how things are measured. We find that some occupations that are not classified as non-traditional for women in the general population become non-traditional for Métis and other aboriginal women. Definitions matter, and we urge the committee to examine this question in some detail.

The reason most often cited for wanting to increase the participation of women in occupations traditionally dominated by men is that this will lead to higher employment income for women and close the income gap with men. This is certainly our goal, but we believe that some cautionary notes are warranted, not to dampen enthusiasm for this enterprise but to make sure that we consider all aspects of the issue.

The fact of the matter is that society throughout history has always undervalued women's work relative to men's. Women are increasingly, in fact, entering into male-dominated occupations—slowly, but surely. For example, this is occurring in trades and other traditional labour-oriented occupations at the present time. Métis women are leading the way in penetrating these occupations in western Canada. Métis women account for only 1.6% of the female workforce in the Métis homeland, but they account for close to 7% of women working as logging operators and heavy equipment operators and are relatively overrepresented also in a range of trade and trade-related occupations, such as plumbers, pipefitters, and labourers.

We are far from convinced that this has had major impact on women's incomes. As women move into male-dominated occupations, it becomes more important than ever to ensure that women are paid equitably: equal pay for work of equal value.

A second point that the committee should consider is the importance of investing in education and skills development. The majority of jobs in this country do not require a university education, but they do require skills and experience. If we are trying to get more aboriginal women into the trades or into mining, forestry, and other resource occupations, or into higher-paying engineering, drafting, and information technologies, or into assembly line work, then we have to prepare them early, and particularly our young women, to enter these careers.

A number of initiatives could be undertaken to prepare Métis women to enter such occupations. First, many of you may be aware that the Government of Canada funds our aboriginal governments to provide labour market programs and services under what was formerly known as the aboriginal human resources development strategy, which has now morphed into the aboriginal skills and employment training strategy.

What you may not know is that the funding levels to aboriginal organizations under this program have remained static for over 10 years. The funding is critical. It enables our people, including our young women, to develop skills needed on the labour market. We urge the committee to recommend increased funding for this program and a stronger orientation for preparing women for non-traditional occupations.

Second, it is important to develop culturally sensitive programs that introduce Métis first nations and Inuit women to the potential of working in non-traditional occupations. How can women choose non-traditional occupations if they believe it is impossible for them to access these careers? No such program has been developed specifically for aboriginal people.

Third, we should not underestimate how significant an issue child care is to women generally and to Métis women in particular. Women are the caregivers. It is difficult for women, particularly with low incomes, to commit to a demanding career when they know that they will have to exit the labour force for extended periods to raise their children. Without adequate, accessible, and affordable child care, how can women be expected to enter challenging work environments?

For Métis and other aboriginal people, these problems are even more acute because of the high proportion of single-parent families in our communities. In the Métis homeland, some 15.1% of women over the age of 15 live in single-family households, and in provinces such as Saskatchewan the figure is even higher, 18.6%. Provincial child care subsidies are inadequate. We need a national child care system readily accessible to all women. Failing this, we would call on the committee to consider extending the first nations and Inuit child care initiative to Métis. This would enable our own organizations to begin to meet the needs of our young mothers.

Fourth, employers must be educated and given proper incentives to hire women, even in non-traditional occupations. The United States has had affirmative action programs in place for some time, and indications are that they have worked to increase the participation of women in non-traditional occupations. In Canada we should consider establishing employment equity standards and targets in non-traditional industries to encourage employers to hire women.

Finally, it is really important to overcome the gender and ethnic biases that poison the working environment for aboriginal women entering non-traditional occupations. We know that women can do as good a job as men. We know that aboriginal people can do as good a job as non-aboriginal people. But not only do aboriginal women face obstacles just to enter non-traditional occupations, we face all sorts of subtle and not-so-subtle discriminations in the workplace once we find a job in these non-traditional sectors. Among other things, we are less likely to be entrusted with responsibility or to be promoted. This will take time to change, but public authorities could also be more proactive in encouraging employers and co-workers to accept women and aboriginal women in the workplace.

Thank you for listening.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Ms. Thomas.

There is also a written presentation, but it's only in English as well. If you wish to have them, they're here.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Madam Chair, will you have the documents translated for us, so that we have copies by next week?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

We could translate it, if you like.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

I'd appreciate that, because these were excellent presentations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

We have to go to translation to do that. It takes some time.

[Julie Cool, Committee Researcher]

The presentation is no different that what is already found in the minutes of proceedings.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

If it's already in the minutes of proceedings and it's translated, fine then.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Also, the presentation that was read will be in the minutes, in both instances.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

C'est ce que je comprends.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

We will begin our seven-minute round.

I would just like to explain to the witnesses that the seven minutes are for questions and answers. I'm going to depend on the questioner and the witness to focus themselves so that they can get as much in as they wish. Thank you.

Ms. Simson.

[Michelle Simson, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for taking time out of your busy days to sit in on the committee meeting today.

My first question is for Ms. Phaneuf. I was fascinated by the Northern Women in Mining, Oil and Gas project. It sounded interesting as a dedicated women-only approach to training and development.

Can you be a little more specific about how this program varied from conventional training? And is the program going to have any impact on improving retention of women in, say, non-traditional occupations?