Evidence of meeting #49 for Status of Women in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was commissioner.
A video is available from Parliament.
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
Okay.
I can just say briefly that in my time, in the seven years, I have dealt with next to no sexual harassment cases. I will ask Mr. Paradiso.
David Paradiso Executive Director and Senior Counsel, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
We don't specifically keep statistics on sexual harassment grievances. We do have harassment grievances, which is why we came up with our 99 number over the last 25 years.
NDP
The Chair NDP Marie-Claude Morin
Your time is up. Thank you.
We now go to the other side.
Ms. Ashton, you have seven minutes.
NDP
Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB
Thank you.
Thank you for your testimony.
We've heard, obviously, that there's a court case regarding sexual harassment experienced by rank-and-file women members in the RCMP, yet you've mentioned that very few cases have come to your attention. Why do you think that's the case?
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
I don't know the reason, but I can think of some possible answers. As I said, we are at an appeal level of the process, so it could be that there are complaints made that are dealt with at the first level and aren't taken to appeal. That could be one reason why we don't see as many.
Then, of course, we know there's the situation where there are some people who feel that they've been harassed, but they don't even make the complaint. I think it's very unfortunate that they think that. The result is that the case will never get to us, obviously.
NDP
Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB
Yes, and that's an interesting point. Obviously, a number of women see the courts as being a place where they can take these very serious allegations forward.
Have you seen any trends around sexual harassment? You spoke of the 99 cases. Have you seen any trends over time with respect to those cases, whatever they may be, whether it's the kind or...? Is there any difference over time within these last 25 years when it comes to sexual harassment complaints, or appeals, which is what you deal with?
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
There have been so few that I would hesitate to talk about trends.
In relation to harassment cases in general, even there I wouldn't want to say that I can see the whole picture just by the cases that come to us, because we have a very unique window. But in the cases that have come to us, I think we've seen things happen that give us ideas, as I said in the presentation, about principles that we think are really important in any system that's going to deal with harassment effectively.
I think training is a very big component, as is early resolution. Because we are at the appeal level, we see cases that have been in the system for quite a while. Just in reading the files, I see the toll that takes on all the parties—the person who complained and the person who's alleged to have harassed—and even on the work environment of those people. I think that is a key element: to ensure that harassment issues are dealt with effectively right at the outset. I think that's key.
NDP
Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB
A number of witnesses have pointed out that workplace culture, and especially the culture that exists in hierarchical workplaces where few women are represented at all levels, makes for situations that are more prone to harassment, sexual harassment in particular. Do any of your recommendations focus on changing workplace culture within the RCMP?
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
Not any of our recommendations specifically. I understand there is a consensus that the culture within the RCMP needs to change. I think this provides an excellent opportunity for improvements to be made in the labour relations processes. I see a big link between a healthy and respectful workplace and effective, timely, and fair labour relations processes.
NDP
Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB
Looking at the work you do and getting a sense of the challenges that members are facing in the RCMP, do you think it's important that the RCMP has effective exit surveys and an understanding of the data on harassment, if there is harassment that the members are facing, and what kind of harassment that might be?
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
That sounds to me like an excellent idea. It could provide some significant information that would point them to places where they need to do extra work.
NDP
Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB
I want to turn to Bill C-42. As I noted earlier, we in the NDP will not be supporting it in third reading, because the gaps are still extensive and we're concerned about the fact that harassment isn't mentioned in the legislation.
I want to ask about C-42's impact on your work. C-42 would require the External Review Committee to establish time limits within which grievances and appeals would be dealt with. Will the legislation result in shorter times, or will it simply make the current timeframes public and subject to an annual report to the Minister of Public Safety?
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
I accept that just establishing timeframes doesn't necessarily mean that an agency is going to meet them. We work with desired timeframes now, so this would just be a matter of publishing them in our annual report. At the present time, we don't meet those timeframes. They're a goal that we hope to attain, but we don't meet them.
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
I don't believe so. I think the requirement would be that those timeframes be made public, and that there might be an explanation if they're not met of why they're not met. That's my understanding.
NDP
Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB
That speaks to some of the broader concerns we have about the adequacy of the legislation.
Can you advise the committee how long the grievances and appeals you're working with take on average, and if sexual harassment cases take more or less time than others?
Executive Director and Senior Counsel, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
We don't have an average. I could state that the harassment cases are more time-consuming and painstaking than most ordinary grievances.
NDP
The Chair NDP Marie-Claude Morin
I must stop you there, Ms. Ashton.
Ms. Young now has seven minutes.
Conservative
Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC
Thank you so much for being here today and for sharing your experiences with us.
I have a couple of comments, and questions obviously.
In the cases you have dealt with, would you say that in 100% of them the griever is a woman?
