Status of Women Committee on Nov. 20th, 2012

[Catherine Ebbs]

No. I am the only one who has the authority to make the findings and recommendations. There is only one member, and I'm supported by five public servants.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Would you give us a bit of history as to how long this has been in existence and how you were appointed?

[Catherine Ebbs]

The ERC has existed for 25 years. It came out of a study that was done by Justice René Marin in the seventies about the internal work environment within the RCMP. He recommended some pretty big changes to the internal structures, as well as the creation of the ERC, the External Review Committee, and our sister agency, the committee that deals with public complaints.

In the 25 years we have fulfilled that function, I believe I am the fourth chair, and, as I said, I was appointed in 2005.

I began with the committee in 2003 as legal counsel.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

You mentioned that the Treasury Board guidelines offer an alternative method of dealing with incidents of sexual harassment when both parties can engage in resolution and the complainant has more control over the process. Do you think this type of process will encourage women to deal with incidents at an earlier stage?

[Catherine Ebbs]

I think any change that will promote or assist parties to find a resolution at the earliest possible stage will be extremely helpful and will definitely increase the confidence level for the people who might be thinking of using it.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

You mentioned the grievance procedure. I'd just like to get a finer appreciation of the grievance procedure you go through.

Can you give us what options are available after a decision has been taken by the committee and the commissioner has made a ruling?

[Catherine Ebbs]

To use harassment grievances as an example, the recommendation could be from the ERC that....

First of all, the grievance could have been presented either by the person who made the complaint at the outset, where the finding was that the allegation of harassment was not established, or by the person who was found to have harassed. It could come from either party. Our recommendation to the commissioner, after our review, would be to either allow the grievance or deny the grievance—keep the decision as it was at the outset.

In our review, we looked at what was decided, but we also looked at how it was decided. We looked at the process to see if it was fair. For example, if in a harassment grievance we found that the process wasn't followed, we would recommend to the commissioner that he accept our finding, and in that case he would send the matter back to be dealt with properly. That would be an example of an outcome.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

I have one more quick question, if I may, Chair.

Could you give us an idea of how this body is appointed?

[Catherine Ebbs]

I am a Governor in Council appointment. There was a selection process. The post was advertised. I was interviewed.

Actually, in my first appointment, I also appeared before a parliamentary committee after it was recommended that I be appointed.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Back to the other side.

Ms. Hassainia, you may go ahead for five minutes.

[Sana Hassainia, NDP, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

First off, thank you for your presentation.

Second, Ms. Ebbs, you referred to the importance of reaching a resolution in a harassment case fairly quickly. Could you tell us what kind of process you have in mind and who would be responsible for administering it?

[Catherine Ebbs]

The policy of the Treasury Board Secretariat includes certain processes. The parties can access a type of mediation mechanism. That is an informal resolution measure. Throughout a process like that, I would say, in harassment cases, it is always preferable for the parties to have the support of an expert, a facilitator, or someone with those kinds of skills. I believe this strategy can genuinely work and benefit both parties in all types of disputes.

As for attempting to resolve the dispute as quickly as possible, as I see it, that is paramount. The goal is to have processes that not only work well, but also have the acceptance of members. That is the way to achieve a healthier and fairer workplace.

[Sana Hassainia, NDP, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Thank you.

Earlier, you had some recommendations for training that members should take to prevent harassment, sexual harassment specifically. Could you comment on the type of workplace training you would recommend?

[Catherine Ebbs]

Of course, though it is a bit outside my area of expertise. I listened to the answer given by the people at the RCMP. According to them, harassment training, possibly even mandatory training, is a major component of their initiative. As for the delivery methods, I don't know enough to answer that part of the question adequately.

[Sana Hassainia, NDP, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Someone asked a question earlier, but unfortunately we ran out of time before we could get the answer.

Would you be able to provide us with information on the response time in cases involving sexual harassment grievances? Do you have that information? Is it tracked?

[Catherine Ebbs]

No, I can't give you an answer because we see so few sexual harassment cases. I don't have an answer for you.

In more general terms, I can say that harassment grievance cases usually take longer than others because of the complexity of the facts. Often, the points raised are also more complex.

[Sana Hassainia, NDP, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

You can't discuss it now because you don't have the figures? Do you have them somewhere? Could you provide them to us later?

[Catherine Ebbs]

I will ask Mr. Paradiso to take that.

[David Paradiso]

We can attempt to find them. The difficulty is in isolating those sexual harassment cases, because we don't identify them specifically. We don't track them, so we have to go over our cases and then identify how long they've taken.

[Sana Hassainia, NDP, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Very well.

Unless I am mistaken, the committee reviews grievances and makes recommendations to the commissioner. But the commissioner is not required to consider them. So what is the point of making recommendations? Is there no other way to ensure follow-through?

[Catherine Ebbs]

Under the current system, our role is to submit recommendations to the commissioner. However, the RCMP External Review Committee's history has shown us that our recommendations have the potential to influence the way the RCMP approaches certain issues. That is something we have observed.

Whether it's a recommendation or a binding decision, what matters is that the external review process be well-respected and sound. That is the underlying principle.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Thank you, Ms. Ebbs.

We have one last five-minute chunk for questions. We will wrap up with Ms. Young, or is it Ms. Bateman?

I think you are going to share the five minutes.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Yes, we would like to split the time, if you don't mind.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

No problem.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I will just take part of the time because we both wanted to have the chance to ask you a question.

You clearly have a lot of experience in this, and I'm delighted to hear that you're going to be consulted on a variety of levels as people re-examine their approach.

The comment was made earlier, and I forget which one of our colleagues spoke to the difference of management and leadership. It has always been my experience that a good manager is a leader, and this really is a leadership issue, in my view.

Could you speak to that? Do you have some views that you would like to share with your key clients?