Evidence of meeting #49 for Status of Women in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was commissioner.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC
I'm going to ask Mr. Paradiso to add any of his thoughts. Would you agree with what Ms. Ebbs said?
Executive Director and Senior Counsel, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
I agree with what the chair has said.
NDP
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
Thank you very much.
Welcome to both of you. Thank you for the work that you attempt to do. Clearly, a lot of people don't have the confidence levels to get up and just walk away, and they don't even bother to appeal.
I wanted to read a couple of quotes from three different members that were in the report I referenced earlier, which I hope the committee will have shortly.
One of them is from one of the RCMP officers interviewed:
I would never report harassment. I have seen what happens to those who have and their life was made hell by those in [the] management positions who have used their authority to intimidate.
The second one:
We wear a bullet proof vest to protect ourselves from the bad guys out there, but really we need to be wearing the vest to protect ourselves from the bad guys inside our own organization.
The third one reads—and again these are different people:
The women I know that have encountered difficulty were strong, independent and confident. These women were pushed out of jobs when they had expertise and interest and had to start over at an advanced point in their careers at jobs they did not choose. This is a serious and very real problem [in the RCMP], going well beyond an unwelcome joke. It is uglier than most people think.
You've no doubt been reading newspapers and hearing reports of a variety of comments and so on, in particular about harassment, specifically sexual harassment of women, which is why we're really looking at this issue from the Status of Women's perspective.
In the work you're doing at your senior level of appeal, what was your feeling when you were hearing these comments, knowing what you deal with at your level? And how few get to you? Did you question why you weren't getting more complaints, even though you're at an appeal process?
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
First, I find it very unfortunate that there are situations where people feel they have no recourse. They have issues and complaints and they don't feel the recourse is going to work for them. I think that is very unfortunate. Hopefully, with the work that is being done to make the process of handling these complaints more efficient and more fair, that will build more confidence for people who are in similar situations.
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
On the different recommendations that you have made to the commissioner, you said 85% of them were accepted by him. Were those 85% basically concurring with what it was the RCMP wanted to achieve, or were they of a different opinion than what the force was recommending?
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
They were both. We don't always agree with the decision that was made at the first level, if that's what I understand you're referring to.
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
Do you have any way of monitoring what kind of action happens as a result of your recommendation?
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
We don't get formal notice of what happens. When we present findings and recommendations to the commissioner, we receive the commissioner's full decision when he makes it. So we know exactly what the outcome of that decision was.
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
Do you feel a level of intimidation from the RCMP if you go contrary to their recommendations?
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
No, absolutely not. I think in the 25 years of the committee our independence has been respected. I don't feel that at all.
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
We are very small. I am the chair and the only one who has authority to make the findings and recommendations. I'm supported by Mr. Paradiso and four full-time staff. We are six in total.
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
You have six full-time staff in total and you handle 30 appeals a year on average? How long does it take for you to go through that process, relative to the seriousness of the appeal?
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
It can vary quite a bit because we have different types of cases—grievances, discipline matters. It can take anywhere from a couple of weeks to months, depending on the complexity of the case.
Liberal
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
Most of our caseload would be grievances. Those grievances can deal with a number of matters. We have harassment grievances, as we were talking about, grievances about monetary issues, like relocation, isolated post, travel stoppage, suspension without pay. We deal with a lot of different subjects. Then we have the discipline cases, but the majority are grievances.
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
Have you been asked about making some recommendations to the commissioner as to how you might see streamlining some of the multitude of processes and levels? Just listening to everything this morning about all the different levels, and it's here and it's there.... Just give up and go—that's exactly what I think most people feel, and many of the women I have spoken to, in particular the women, develop that attitude. It's just, “Forget it”. There's no way you're going to continue.
Have you been asked to make some recommendations as to how the appeal process might be streamlined to better help some of the individuals who want to come forward?
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
Yes, we have been consulted, and we have been told that we will be consulted in the ongoing process to develop better processes.
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
Yes, but the ERC has consulted and has been consulted on other initiatives in the past as well.
The Chair NDP Marie-Claude Morin
Thank you.
We now go to the other side, with Mr. Aspin.
This is the beginning of a new round, so you have five minutes.
Conservative
Jay Aspin Conservative Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Welcome to you both, and thank you for giving us input on such an important subject.
I'm curious about the ERC, the External Review Committee. You mentioned you have two members, plus a legal team of four members.