Status of Women Committee on Nov. 27th, 2012

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Actually, I'll go on with another question.

You acknowledge that relationships on an even level are acceptable. When it involves a higher rank, and someone is a subordinate to that person, is that disallowed?

[Karol Wenek]

Well, it depends. If they're in the same chain of command, it's disallowed. For example, you could have people in a personal relationship at a military base but working in different subunits, so there's not necessarily any conflict of interest there.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I know there's a very low...based on the percentages of complaints or sexual harassment complaints or harassment in total.... But do you not see that when personal relationships break up, fall apart, or go south, is that not opening the door to the greater possibility of a sexual harassment type of situation? If so, have there actually been any complaints associated with that as the leading cause of a complaint coming in?

[Karol Wenek]

Madam Chair, I think the risk is always there. As to how that plays out, maybe Tony can add something on that.

[Cdr Tony Crewe]

That would be up to the responsible officer to determine. When a situational assessment is done on the complaint to see if it meets the grounds to carry it forward as a complaint, certainly those aspects will come into consideration. Is it a valid complaint, or is it a retaliatory complaint “because you broke up with me” and that sort of thing? It's all going to be situational and case by case.

Certainly, as mentioned, we're human, so that sort of issue may come up in a complaint situation, but we certainly don't track it on that basis.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I have a quick question, because I think my time is running out.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Very quickly.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

When we talk about resolution through alternative dispute resolution, one of the options is self-help. Could you explain what self-help means?

[Cdr Tony Crewe]

That's the process of trying to refer the member back to the chain of command, to get the member to take himself or herself through in speaking with the supervisor. There are some reference materials that the member is steered to.

Rather than act as the neutral third party and broker discussions, they try to get the member to have that face-to-face discussion with the supervisor.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Thank you.

We will now move on to Mrs. Hassainia. You have five minutes.

[Sana Hassainia, NDP, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank our witnesses for agreeing to come back to meet with us.

From the last meetings, we understand that part of the improvement in the culture involved an increase in the number of women. What changes are essential in order to provide a safe environment? What measures are you going to take to continue to increase the number of women in the Canadian Forces?

[Karol Wenek]

Madam Chair, we have had several initiatives in place for many years to encourage women to join the Canadian Forces. Our recruiting organization engages in a number of outreach activities with professional groups, with women's associations, with school organizations, and has special events specifically targeting women as potential candidates for service in the forces. That's probably the biggest activity in terms of recruiting and outreach.

Internally, we try to ensure all of our policies are equitable. We make special measures, as appropriate, to accommodate women's service in the military. For example, we have a policy on maternity leave that is quite generous in its benefits and ensures they are not penalized as a result of absence for maternal or other family-related responsibilities. In some cases, we introduce special measures to ensure women have equal access to professional development programs and courses.

[Sana Hassainia, NDP, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Thank you.

The RCMP and National Defence are organizations that face different situations every day. Would one of you have any general recommendations to make to the RCMP that you would like to share with us?

[Karol Wenek]

Madam Chair, I think I will refrain from that due to not being sufficiently conversant with the circumstances of the RCMP's problems. We would certainly welcome any request for information they wish to put to us.

[Sana Hassainia, NDP, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

I have one last question.

How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

You have two minutes left.

[Sana Hassainia, NDP, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

The committee understands that the Canadian Forces use administrative grievance processes and disciplinary actions to resolve sexual harassment problems.

Could you explain what interaction there is with that military procedure when there are sexual harassment complaints? Who decides what procedure will be used? Does the fact that there are multiple mechanisms present special challenges in resolving problems relating to sexual harassment?

[Cdr Tony Crewe]

Madam Chair, in the case of a Canadian Forces member filing a grievance where there is harassment involved, the grievance process would refer the member to use the formal harassment complaint process.

Our grievance process is designed to cover off situations where there is no other policy directly applicable. We would probably put the grievance in abeyance once the results of the harassment complaint process are known, to then determine to what extent that decision would impact on the grievance itself. The grievance process is not used for harassment complaints.

[Sana Hassainia, NDP, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Thank you.

The committee has heard from experts who said that the preferred approach for preventing and resolving sexual harassment problems in the workplace was to use alternative dispute resolution as much as possible rather than the usual grievance and complaint resolution procedures.

Has there been extensive use of an ADR mechanism within the Canadian Forces, and if so, does that mechanism impinge on the existing disciplinary procedures, or does it supplement it?

[Karol Wenek]

Madam Chair, we have used ADR very extensively. You can look at individual responses across a spectrum of perceived social costs and benefits. In other words, when you engage in a grievance, you are entering into a kind of quasi-adversarial process, and you can escalate that if you wish and you can launch a lawsuit, I suppose. There is this spectrum, as I mentioned, of social costs and benefits.

For the member to engage in an adversarial process, that means they are putting at stake their acceptance in the organization and possibly their commitment to the organization as well. In other words, what is it going to cost the member to engage in that kind of process versus one that probably has an expectation or possibility of preserving social acceptance within the workgroup and being able to maintain one's commitment to the organization as well? We see that as beneficial on both sides, for the institution and for the member.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Thank you very much, Mr. Wenek.

This concludes our discussion today. I would like to thank you again for accepting our second invitation. Thank you very much for the information you have provided this morning. It was much appreciated.

I am going to suspend the meeting for a minute so we can go in camera to discuss committee business.

[Proceedings continue in camera]