Evidence of meeting #51 for Status of Women in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was employees.
A video is available from Parliament.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
Can you tell me how many, in approximately the last five years, have been brought to your attention to be resolved through the FST or any other way?
9:25 a.m.
Chief Human Resources Officer, Human Resources, Corporate Planning and Communications , House of Commons
Do you mean sexual harassment or...?
9:25 a.m.
Chief Human Resources Officer, Human Resources, Corporate Planning and Communications , House of Commons
Harassment. I can think of only one since I've been here. The matter was thoroughly investigated. The union was involved, and it turned out that it really wasn't harassment; it was other things.
But there are conflicts all the time that we deal with that don't come to my level but are resolved through FST.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
I certainly think the speedy resolution of the issue is the way to deal with an awful lot of these things, right at the very beginning, when something is flagged, not having to leave it to go through alternate managers. I think much of the problem that we've been hearing about is the process issue, where people just didn't feel there was an opportunity for a speedy resolution of the complaint or issue and that continued to brew and become bigger and bigger.
On the issue of the regular mandatory training sessions that you referred to, how often is regular mandatory training? What does that mean, actually? Is that once a year, every two years, as far as the training sessions for managers and people at that level are concerned?
9:30 a.m.
Clerk of the House of Commons, House of Commons
When the policy was first introduced, there was a mandatory training program for all managers, and that went through the House, and then for all employees.
Kathryn, perhaps you can explain the regular.... Certainly any time any new employees are hired, as part of their orientation program there is the component of the no tolerance for harassment and the fact that the policy exists and so forth.
Kathryn, could you...?
9:30 a.m.
Chief Human Resources Officer, Human Resources, Corporate Planning and Communications , House of Commons
Yes. We've gone through a full blitz of training in the last couple of years. The training in conflict resolution and understanding conflict is part of our regular training calendar. On an ongoing basis the Finding Solutions coordinator will organize training sessions just to refresh, if you want. Those are on a quarterly basis, depending on her time. She's very busy with her work and doing mediations and whatever, but training is a big part of her role.
9:30 a.m.
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
It would be very easy for people who are in a job for a significant amount of time to kind of forget about things like harassment and what that really is. I really like the idea of your having regular mandatory training rather than a program once every 10 years. I think it's a reminder that certain behaviours are unacceptable in the workplace, whether we're talking about men or women. It's a fairness issue for everyone.
On the issue to do with staff for members of Parliament, I think in the years I've been here I've seen a bit of a change in certain ways in how MPs treat their staff, but I have also seen young women in particular—and possibly young men, I want to be fair on everything.
I'm speaking in particular about a young woman who was clearly being abused while she was working for a member of Parliament. There's nothing much short of it. She worked extremely long hours. She was yelled at, treated disrespectfully in all senses, and was reluctant to go anywhere to lodge a complaint. She didn't want to lose her job. Ultimately she left because there was no other way of dealing with the issue, but that was too bad because she did not want to have to leave.
When I suggested to her that she might speak to others, i.e., whips and people in a higher position, she was very reluctant to do it and ultimately just quit. I thought that was a shame because it was not fair, and she should have had an opportunity to stay in the job, but it didn't work out.
I suspect there are a lot of people who work for MPs who are not coming forward, because we expect an awful lot of people who work for us. Is there ever a meeting done with the staff of members of Parliament outlining opportunities for them to lodge complaints without having to be in fear of losing their jobs?
9:30 a.m.
Clerk of the House of Commons, House of Commons
The short answer is no. We don't have any role to play in making the staff of members aware of what their rights might be and how to operate if they have a conflict, or a harassment situation, or what they view as an abuse of power situation.
What we do is, after an election when there's an orientation of new members, we make a point of explaining to members, many of whom have not been in a position where they employ people before, to tell them that they are now an employer and they have responsibilities in that respect. We go through the framework they need to operate in, generally speaking.
I confess that I think for many members who come in after an election it is a huge leap to actually run an office and manage a group of people here and in the constituency. Very often they are terrifically vulnerable to whoever they hire as their chief of staff. You end up in situations, which as you say, are sometimes very unfortunate.
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
Has there been any interest or any request to create an opportunity to meet with MPs' staff to outline to them the kind of behaviours they should tolerate and not tolerate, or anything along those lines?
9:35 a.m.
Clerk of the House of Commons, House of Commons
Yes. I should say quickly that I think all of the parties and all of the whips are very anxious to avoid these kinds of situations, but I don't think any of them view us, the administration, as part of a solution to that. I think they view themselves as handling it in their own party in their own way.
9:35 a.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP Marie-Claude Morin
I am sorry, Ms. Sgro, but your time is up. Thank you.
We will now move on to the second round of questions.
Ms. Bateman, you have five minutes.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Joyce Bateman Conservative Winnipeg South Centre, MB
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I would like to thank all our witnesses.
I was very interested in your comment about the leadership you have shown.
Expunge is one word I don't know en français. I think that's wonderful that you do not expunge after two years the record of somebody who has harassed. Perhaps for the record that is something we could make sure this committee hears loud and clear. Perhaps that could be a formal part of our report that could change Treasury Board, because you were so very kind to say we learn from Treasury Board's rulings. I think there's an example of where Treasury Board could learn from you. I think that's an improvement.
I just want to ask a couple of questions.
Thank you for the quotation.
You mentioned that someone said to never attribute to malice what you can explain by stupidity.
Are the language instructors we are privileged to have employees of the House of Commons?
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Joyce Bateman Conservative Winnipeg South Centre, MB
They are. In a situation in which someone who is a member of the House of Commons staff, whether in the language area or another one of the many service areas, which we appreciate, with respect to the commentary about abuse of power—and Madame L'Heureux mentioned it as well in her remarks—sometimes harassment starts through an abuse of power situation. We often look for male to female, but it can be the reverse just as easily. We should be cognizant of both.
When somebody feels, among your 2,200 employees or 1,800 full-time employees, that they are being abused, for whatever reason, whether it's racism or whether it's that someone doesn't like how they look, how does that employee come forward? Much as Madam Sgro said, sometimes people are just afraid to. I think they have a more long-term reality than ministerial and MPs' staff have, so there's more at risk for that individual.
How do they come forward without tarnishing their ability to continue to work?
9:35 a.m.
Clerk of the House of Commons, House of Commons
You're talking about a situation, let's say, in which, if I understand you correctly, you might have an MP and a—
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Joyce Bateman Conservative Winnipeg South Centre, MB
No, I'm talking about a situation in which somebody, say, in the language training area is being regarded very well by all of their.... Their client service ethic is exemplaire, and their direct supervisor may not appreciate that.
9:35 a.m.
Clerk of the House of Commons, House of Commons
Right.
This is part of what makes my job the best job in Canada, as far as I'm concerned. It's these kinds of complexities and nuances.
One of the things that we as managers and I as Clerk have to be very careful of is the notion that there are various people involved in the administration who provide direct service to members. They may provide absolutely brilliant service to members and be recognized for that and do it in an exemplary fashion.
That does not necessarily make them exemplary employees.This is a hypothetical comment, but you might have a person who views themselves as an individual providing an individual service and is very proud of it and so forth, but does not operate very well in the work environment with other team members—say, with other teachers—and is disrespectful to the supervisor, and feels that they can set aside any kind of directive—
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Joyce Bateman Conservative Winnipeg South Centre, MB
What if the supervisor is disrespectful to that person?
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Joyce Bateman Conservative Winnipeg South Centre, MB
—because it's a matter of which comes first, the chicken or the egg?