Status of Women Committee on Dec. 6th, 2012

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

Would it therefore be possible for us to get some information or statistics—

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

I am going to have to stop you there, Ms. Young. I am sorry, but your time is up. Thank you.

We will now go to Ms. Ashton for five minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Thank you very much.

I am going to share my time with my colleague.

First of all, do you feel the private sector could learn something from your school and the work you do when it comes to training around sexual harassment?

[Jean-François Fleury]

From the school's perspective, we don't analyze the curricula or strategies from the private sector. I think what we have at the school is very internal knowledge of the craft of government and how that works, and a very sound understanding of the communities. Our instructors in most cases, when you get into very specialized subject matter in courses, are trained current public servants.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

The reason I ask is that it's known that women are far more equitably represented in positions of power and decision-making in the public service as compared with the private sector. Obviously that connects very strongly with a culture...whether it condones or certainly supports, I guess, incidents of harassment, and sexual harassment in particular.

It would seem to me that the training you offer, which caters to and is based on a system that is perhaps more equitable and better for women to work in, might be something the private sector could learn from.

I also want to just put on the record my concern. I know last week it became an issue not to put words in the mouths of other witnesses. My colleague Ms. Bateman made reference to a comment around managers and unions not getting training.

I would caution around judgments being made about managers. Obviously there are different levels of managerial positions, and I think misinterpreting words that may or may not have been said with regard to training, and making general statements with regard to training that may or may not take place, is problematic. I'm not sure what it has to do with actually coming up with proper recommendations in this study.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Ms. Bateman, is that a point of order?

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I very much appreciate Madam Ashton's comment.

Could we ask the analyst to specifically extract the comments made by the lady who was here from the Canadian Labour Congress and analyze the point that I made reference to?

In her remarks, she said very clearly that they do not offer manager training. I was just seeking to find a point so that those managers could be trained, because if we don't train our managers, we have a problem. We're all here to work together to make sure we create a respectful workplace.

Could we make sure that the analyst pulls that, and that we, as a committee, get to look at that specific comment? This was not ill-intended; this was intended to make sure that we work together. We have a School of Public Service that could fill that need. I just want to clarify that.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

I don't think that we can get the information that you are requesting in writing today, since the testimony was given an hour ago. But we will be able to do so later.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I am asking that our analyst provide all the committee members with an analysis of Ms. Ashton's comments. I have counted three occurrences where she said that Vicky Smallman, National Director of the Women's and Human Rights Department from the Canadian Labour Congress, said this or that. That was the point I wanted to raise. I quoted Ms. Smallman's comment in my question to the witnesses who are here before us. Perhaps this would be an opportunity for our witnesses here to better serve the managers market in public service.

That is the reason behind my comment; I have no ill intentions.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Why is this a point of order?

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Perhaps because it is a very important point for our committee.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Ms. Ashton, you have the floor.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

I would simply like to say this.

It's not about the intention; it's about having the right facts, and we're asking all our witnesses to provide background facts. Maybe it would be interesting—and this has nothing to do with the Canadian Labour Congress or anything else—to find out what level of managers receive the kind of training the school offers, or other kinds of training. Maybe the higher up you go, they receive training from outside actors.

I do think the statement that was made earlier really doesn't add to the kind of recommendation we should be making, but I agree with Ms. Bateman that we need the right kind of information, and I think the analyst could provide the right kind of information, based on doing broader research with regard to training managers in the public service.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Ms. Sgro, you have put your hand up. Do you have something to add?

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

I don't want to get into this. I'm not sure where it's all going, but now you've raised an issue. I don't want to give work to the analyst—

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Neither do I, honestly.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

—and we still have our previous witness here.

My understanding from the Canadian Labour Congress is that their managers do policy; they don't offer training. The training of their managers happens within the individual unions. It does not happen through the Canadian Labour Congress itself because they are a policy development organization.

I don't think we need the analyst to spend 15 hours trying to clarify when we still have a witness here who could probably clarify what she meant when she made that comment.

But it is 10:30—

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

I am sorry, but I am not sure where this debate is going and it has made us lose the last few minutes with our representatives from the School of Public Service, because now we have to discuss the future business of the committee.

I am not really sure what you are getting at, Ms. Bateman. I am sorry.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

No, no. Actually, it is so that our committee runs smoothly.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Okay.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

That is why I said what I said.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Okay. So you would like an analysis of...

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

We need to know exactly what our witness from the Canadian Labour Congress said, since I quoted her.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Of course, we are going to get that information. It is still...

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Yes. We also need to see the part I quoted, because I think that Ms. Ashton misunderstood my comment.