Status of Women Committee on Dec. 6th, 2012

[Vicky Smallman]

A lot of it really exists on a policy level, and a lot of this work was done a number of years ago in helping unions create policy. We have policies and procedures for our own events, making sure they are harassment-free events. There are policies for conventions and for educational schools, and so on, because harassment can occur in any place where people gather to do work together. We have to protect our own members in-house.

We also assist with creating educational programs and training for union representatives, for example. Training we create for shop stewards or for women in leadership might also include components around creating a harassment-free workplace, dealing with conflict in the workplace. For example, a “women in leadership” course I am creating right now has a component around dealing with conflict and aggressive behaviour at the workplace, so when you do have to resolve a situation or you find yourself encountering harassment, you have the skills to be able to deal with that.

Those are the types of resources. Policy development, education, and training are the main things.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Great.

This committee has heard that the culture is key to creating a sexual harassment and harassment-free workplace.

Do you agree, and could you elaborate?

[Vicky Smallman]

I certainly do. I think the comments that were made by my colleague here about the impact of the cuts on stress and quality of life are something that should be paid close attention to.

When the stress in a workplace is heightened, people are more likely to be put at risk. It may be that harassing behaviour comes out of a place of anxiety and insecurity at work. It may be, though, that harassment has been occurring all along, and this extra layer of pressure makes it even more difficult to actually come forward and lay a complaint.

The main thing, really, is around the behaviour of managers in being responsive to addressing problems, resolving conflicts, and so much needs to happen at the informal level before it even gets to the formal processes. If you don't have a manager you can go to with a problem, you're not going to come forward. If you think you're going to be labelled, if you're putting yourself at risk for the kinds of things people are going to say about you...you do a cost-benefit analysis when you're being harassed. For many women, at least in the short term, it seems easier just to lay low or to leave. If you have people leaving all the time because it is an unhealthy workplace culture, that's not going to help productivity either.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Do you have any suggestions to address that problem?

[Vicky Smallman]

Well, I think investing in your public servants, for example, at the federal workplace is one suggestion. Good, healthy labour relations are also important.

I do think that training for managers is really important. Really, you can go to all the workshops you want, but if you don't actually implement the policies or the guidelines, if you don't change your behaviour, it's not going to make a difference.

There need to be some incentives for keeping people happy at work.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Do you think that workplace inequality overall, as in pay inequality, has an effect?

[Vicky Smallman]

Definitely. Any symptom of inequality between women and men that manifests at the workplace is going to compound the problem of harassment. It's all interrelated. If there are unequal power relations, it reinforces the kinds of behaviours that we see being acted upon when people harass others. It certainly leaves women vulnerable. Pay inequity is a really big one.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

I have to ask you a bit about ADR, alternative dispute resolution.

Many employers encourage employees to go through the ADR process before filing a grievance through a union. In situations of harassment, specifically sexual harassment, does your organization and do your affiliates support the ADR process?

[Vicky Smallman]

I think it really depends on how it's manifested at a particular workplace. It's hard for me to comment. It's something that you need to ask the specific affiliates as they come forward, as your study continues.

In principle, when you first become a shop steward, you're encouraged to try to resolve problems informally without having to go as far as a grievance. But sometimes that's just not possible. If people aren't meaningfully going through an alternative dispute resolution, then sometimes you need to have formal processes. Sometimes the situation is so extreme that you can't; you just have to take formals steps.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

I'm going to go to Mr. Edwards.

You represent foreign service officers. They're stationed at different places at different times, so the number of incidents that occur...are they more frequent in Canada or internationally? Or do you have that kind of—

[Timothy Edwards]

I would say internationally, far and away.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Did you have to defend your employees in harassment cases, particularly sexual harassment, in the context where different cultures are involved?

[Timothy Edwards]

I should note at the outset that certainly in recent years—as long as I've been on the executive, which is now five years—our union has never been brought in on a sexual harassment grievance by our members. As for those abroad, as I indicated, usually the assailant is not actually a Government of Canada employee, so one's recourse is limited. In those cases, no, you do not have any channels through which to pursue....

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Right. So it's a question of being in a culture that's not a Canadian culture.

[Timothy Edwards]

That's right.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Does the association pay any attention to exposing the problems with that?

[Timothy Edwards]

No.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

I am sorry, but I have to stop you there.

I will now give the floor to Ms. O'Neill Gordon for seven minutes.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, witnesses, for being with us today.

We've heard from other departments, as well as yourself, that they are trying to work more and more towards no tolerance of sexual harassment, or any harassment, really. I'm happy that you people are also working hard to obtain that objective, that goal.

I understand that the unions were consulted during the development of the new Treasury Board Secretariat policy on values and ethics. What was your participation in the development of this policy?

[Timothy Edwards]

Our involvement is generally through the National Joint Council, as one of the 18 federal bargaining agents.

The area of the values and ethics code that concerned us the most, our association, was the post-employment section, given that a lot of our members do end up moving into fairly prominent, high-profile, or sensitive jobs should they leave the public service. I'm talking about senior positions in the private sector or in civil society. That was really the area where we involved ourselves. We did not have any complaint with the harassment portion of that code.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Do you have anything to add, Ms. Smallman?

[Vicky Smallman]

No, because we don't represent federal workers directly. That would be our affiliates.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Were you satisfied with the result of the final policy?

[Timothy Edwards]

Yes.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Do you provide any training to your employees? I know you mentioned that each union is doing their own thing, but do you have a general training policy that you provide to everybody? When is it that they go into this training and how often? Can you give us a little outlook on how that is done?