Evidence of meeting #6 for Status of Women in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was financial.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
In reading your report and listening to your comments, my sense is that you're not so sure that the heavy arm of the law is the way to deal with a lot of this abuse. Am I mistaken in reading this?
4:20 p.m.
National Director, Canadian Centre for Elder Law
No, you're not mistaken. I certainly appreciate the importance of the criminal framework for prosecuting in circumstances where there has been a crime. I'm not convinced that this is always the response the older person wants when she has been victimized--often because the person who's harming her is a very close person in her family. She may not want her son to go to jail. She may not want people in the neighbourhood to know that her son has hurt her. She may simply want community support for her family to help negotiate a healthy way out of this really bad dynamic that's resulting in harm to her.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
Mr. Soulière, you mentioned the issue of financial abuse, which you outlined in the report, and said that you'd like to give us examples of some of those cases. I'd like to give you this opportunity to tell us a bit about that.
4:20 p.m.
Chair, National Seniors Council
We heard some stories, some tear-jerkers, as you say in English.
A woman was being financially abused by her nephew. She lived in an institution. The bank was concerned that more money was being taken out of her account than was expected. They didn't do anything until it came to a crisis situation. The woman knew that her nephew was doing this. One of the volunteers at the institution where she lived said, “If you know about this, why aren't you reporting it?” Her answer was, “He'll stop coming to visit me.” That is the type of anecdotal stories we hear.
Some of the banks have taken it upon themselves to deal very closely with police when they suspect that something is happening. They will contact the police on a very confidential basis and mention it, or they'll bring in the older person, say they are concerned about what's happening with their bank account, and try to see if there is a problem with it.
Of course, there are scams, mostly by telephone but also by computer, and we need to make older people aware of all these scams. A lot of older people are starting to be computer literate and they get fooled by certain things that are being placed on their computer, so they need education and information on that.
There are lot of different ways in which you can financially abuse someone.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
One of the significant groups that I think is also trying to deal with this issue of abuse is the multicultural community. Some communities have significant language difficulties. Sometimes we hear of this in our constituency office, but they would never talk to anybody else about it.
It's very difficult. The individual's pension comes in and the daughter, daughter-in-law, or son, whoever, takes the cheque, and the person sees absolutely nothing of it. Yet there's nothing you can do if the individual doesn't want to end up being alienated from their own family.
4:25 p.m.
Chair, National Seniors Council
Or they might be of a different culture and see things very differently from how you and I would see them. We make a point in our report--and I think you mentioned it also--that we certainly did not go far enough in dealing with ethnocultural groups. With regard to abuse of the elderly or marginalized people, we certainly did not go into enough detail.
Of course, when you have round tables, you have a cross-section of the community, but one or two different ethnic groups is not sufficient for us to make any conclusion or recommendation.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
If they're having significant problems in our cities--and I represent a group in the city where there are certain resources around--rural communities and small communities must have a significantly greater problem in trying to deal with these kinds of issues.
4:25 p.m.
Chair, National Seniors Council
They could have. I don't have the research on that.
Certainly, if it happens, I don't think the percentage would be any higher in rural communities than in urban communities. I simply don't know.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
There's a lack of resources to solve some of these issues, I would think.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP Niki Ashton
Thank you, Ms. Sgro.
We do have a couple of minutes before we finish with the panel. Is there a quick question from the Conservative side?
I saw Ms. Young's hand go up first.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC
Thank you so much for the time.
I have a quick question for Ms. James. I understand what you're saying in terms of your point that the elderly person may not want legal ramifications. But just in case they do, what do you see as some of the limitations, the restrictions, or the criminal law that's just not there and that we need to be looking at to further support the elderly who are abused and want to seek ramifications?
4:25 p.m.
National Director, Canadian Centre for Elder Law
I think the support would be not so much in criminal legislation but in the victim support structure. Victim assistance exists in different communities. Historically, it hasn't been designed around meeting the needs of older people, who would have different needs. Putting an older person in a transition home is going to be different from putting a younger woman in a transition home, so we have to look at some of those solutions.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC
Because my mother experienced such a case, and she was seeking some legal ramifications and was told both by crown counsel and by the police that she couldn't go forward with her case.
Once again, you're the Canadian Centre for Elder Law, so can you specifically narrow it down to where in the law you see gaps? Or are there no gaps? I mean, do we have enough legislation and law in place?
4:25 p.m.
National Director, Canadian Centre for Elder Law
I don't see the problem right now as being a hole in the criminal legislation. I think the holes would be in the delivery. Maybe there's a crime and the front line enforcing the legislation doesn't recognize that a crime has occurred. Maybe there's a need for assistance and it's not a crime. That doesn't mean you don't need assistance just because it's not a crime.
We need a more robust response that funnels people to the right kind of assistance, whether they present as having been victims of crime or they need something else.
I think there is a need for further support for law enforcement, for them to understand different forms of elder abuse of older women, to know how to dig deeper to understand what's going on within that family, in a respectful way, to provide support for older women, and to promote prosecution, if that's the right solution.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC
Mr. Souliére, with regard to whether you get more incidents or reports at the police station, you're saying they don't have enough resources or training or whatever it is to respond or even to know where to refer the person's who is in need.
4:25 p.m.
Chair, National Seniors Council
Yes, that's what we heard. I'm not suggesting that this is a researched answer. What I'm suggesting is that it's what we heard from police people themselves: that they certainly could not respond to all of the cases they have heard about.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC
So what I'm hearing is that people are reaching out to the law to seek support and/or assistance of some kind, but they're not getting that assistance they need...?
4:30 p.m.
Chair, National Seniors Council
The police investigate and sometimes the case is simply not put forth. Maybe there wasn't any abuse. As I said, this is not researched information. It's anecdotal and it's based on what we heard. Given the lack of research in the area, we certainly didn't make any recommendations.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC
So we have no statistics, then, on police reporting and whether or not that actually translates to support assistance referrals and whether that translates to legal cases or--
4:30 p.m.
Chair, National Seniors Council
I have not seen any statistics in that area.